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Old 01-30-2020, 01:09 AM   #51 (permalink)
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https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla...012352233.html

"At $650, the after-market price is pretty much divorced from any reasonable underlying math. A multiple of forecast GAAP earnings for the year of 275 times is all but meaningless. Tesla has been a “terminal value” stock for so long, in the sense that its price rests implicitly on long-term profit expectations. But it’s worth thinking about the numbers for a second.

As of Wednesday evening, the consensus forecast has Tesla flipping from a net loss of almost $5 a share last year to a profit of almost $2.40 in 2020 and then growing at more than 100%, compounded, through 2023. Looking out 10 years, I wondered what sort of earnings Tesla would need in 2029 to justify its stock price, assuming its terminal value in that year accounted for half the current market cap. At a 10% cost of capital, it works out to just over $200 per share — or an 86-fold increase versus 2020’s (forecast) earnings."

That is why I wouldn't buy Tesla stock at this point. In just 9 years they have to have an 86 fold increase in their current earnings? And at that point they will have been listed for 20 years and the author is only saying they will still have 50% of their value as speculative at that point, AKA 100% overvalued. By comparison GM is 7% undervalued but has been around a long time and is a known commodity. I wouldn't buy them either BTW.

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Old 01-30-2020, 01:49 AM   #52 (permalink)
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How many times more earnings did Amazon make from 2009-2019? Then again, increasing sales of everything is easier to do than increasing sales of a few auto models. I don't think Tesla will be selling 20M vehicles per year in 10 years.

Then again, Tesla isn't just in the car making business. The real money will be in autonomous driving. Then there's all the other vertically integrated stuff the company owns that can have derivative products of their own.
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Old 01-30-2020, 10:22 AM   #53 (permalink)
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How many times more earnings did Amazon make from 2009-2019? Then again, increasing sales of everything is easier to do than increasing sales of a few auto models. I don't think Tesla will be selling 20M vehicles per year in 10 years.

Then again, Tesla isn't just in the car making business. The real money will be in autonomous driving. Then there's all the other vertically integrated stuff the company owns that can have derivative products of their own.
I think this is going to be key. Their solar is starting to grow, battery storage is still growing, and as they slowly get their insurance company through the legal hoops in other states, that will be big. I believe they said on the earnings call that their insurance will cover the car for ride sharing and autonomous driving.

They managed to take on all the financial hits for a new factory on the balance sheet and still turned a profit (small via GAAP), but also put a billion+ in the bank?

I think Tesla is doing fine.

Stock Market is some kind of weird group gambling based on perceived value by a set of people who have a vested interest in the stock price moving up and down. Advisers make money when people move money around from one stock to another. If stock prices moved slowly and smoothly, less people would move their money around in stock, which means lower commissions for the Advisers...
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Old 01-30-2020, 12:46 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Stock Market is some kind of weird group gambling based on perceived value by a set of people who have a vested interest in the stock price moving up and down. Advisers make money when people move money around from one stock to another. If stock prices moved slowly and smoothly, less people would move their money around in stock, which means lower commissions for the Advisers...
...which is why I'm always questioning the utility of the stock market. You get a 1-time capital boost for the company selling stock, and then an infinite amount of trade activity afterwards that produces nothing of value. So many people busying themselves to buy low and sell high, and all the associated infrastructure, to produce zero products or services.

I'm invested in an index fund, but I'm not entirely happy about it. I'd rather my money was being used to invest in something worthwhile other than (hopefully) increasing the numbers on my balance sheet.
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Old 01-30-2020, 02:30 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Old 01-30-2020, 03:47 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Stock Options are huge on the west coast for compensation and to attract people. If a company did not have that kind of incentive, especially the Bay Area, it would stand out.

I worked for an employee owned company (had to be an active employee to buy stock). It seemed to make the company much more stable and gave employees an incentive to the company as a whole succeed. That all changed with a new President & CEO convinced enough people to vote to allow the stock onto the open market...
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Old 01-30-2020, 04:25 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Did the leaders profit while the company suffered?
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Old 01-30-2020, 04:34 PM   #58 (permalink)
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I worked for an employee owned company (had to be an active employee to buy stock)... That all changed with a new President & CEO convinced enough people to vote to allow the stock onto the open market...
Was it structured as a corporation or a cooperative? It sounds like they [were] asked for it.
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Old 01-30-2020, 06:49 PM   #59 (permalink)
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...which is why I'm always questioning the utility of the stock market. You get a 1-time capital boost for the company selling stock, and then an infinite amount of trade activity afterwards that produces nothing of value.
Companies are full of very smart people trying to make money, generally (outside that financial sector) by producing goods and services. Buy stock in one of them that pays dividends instead of one that's simply a place to park your money until its market value goes up and you cash out. You should feel less dirty that way.
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Old 02-01-2020, 04:26 AM   #60 (permalink)
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Huh. I recently watched a video by Meet Kevin. He mentioned a Delaware statutory trust, which I thought was a dividend stock, which would have been relevant. He talked about it paying out 7% annually. Apparently it just lets you let someone else manage your real estate investments while still receiving cashflow. He mentioned it in this video:

He says that you can start with $0, earn $3,000,000 over three years, put it in a DST, and retire. He seems to say the same stuff in every video, because I still am not doing it?

He says you get a side job, save up $20,000, buy a cosmetic fixer-upper for below market value, fix it up, and live in it [instead of renting]. The next year you save another $20,000, buy another cosmetic fixer-upper for below market value, fix it up, and rent it out. He says that you save up $20,000 and buy a house to rent out every year.

He previously said to put 3.5% down. It may not flow cash, but it will once you pay off the mortgage insurance? He has a video saying that if you break even, but build equity, you come out ahead.

$20,000 is 3.5% of $571,428.57, so you buy a house for about that much for yourself the first year, you buy one to rent out the second year, and then each year you buy a more expensive investment property. If you collect eleven months of rent the first year and twelve each following year, clearing 10% more than you pay in mortgage, the ninth year you would purchase a $2,333,735.71 home. The nine properties would be worth $13 million in total and would bring in $81,568.85 in rent annually.

He has never given a rule of thumb for how much of a discount you should be able to get on cosmetic fixer-uppers. I understand that every deal will be different, but let's say that if you cannot get a 10% discount it isn't a good deal, if you get more than a 20% discount it is too much work. For example, after improvements, you should pay 5% below market value, but increase the value 5% above market value.

The other thing is that I have heard time and again that you never profit from improvements, you just sell faster, so I really want to know how those two concepts reconcile.

Since I do not know the math for cosmetic fixer-uppers and he never said where you get the money for improvements, I calculated based on the market value. The worst-case scenario is that I am off by 10-11%.

I feel like I should have calculated mortgage insurance. You break even until you pay that off and then you start making money, but all of this math already took me hours, and if you only break even, the whole plan falls apart. Besides, if the market drops fast enough, you may not get out of mortgage insurance before it goes back up.

There are worse things than buying a $571,428.57 house every year, but if it takes you eight years to get out of mortgage insurance, you will only show a tiny profit after nine years. You definitely would not be buying two-million-dollar homes.

The thing is, even if you were able to purchase $13 million in real estate in nine years, I calculated that you would only have $1,132,043.70 in equity. I could not find a calculator, so I did it in Excel for nine different mortgages.

Good times.

So, you go from $0 to $1.1 million in nine years, and receive over $80,000 a year in return on a total of $180,000. That sounds great, but he talked about a 7% return on $3,000,000, which is $210,000 annually. Maybe you would get there in another three to five years, but that maybe 50% longer than advertised.

If you scale $81,568.85 in rents from $1,132,043.70 in equity, in theory you receive $216,163.51 a year--almost 3% more than the goal, which seems especially small when you consider that your return will undoubtedly go down when you put someone else in charge of it.

If this is really a fourteen-year-plan to go from $0 to $3,000,000 in equity and retire, well, that sounds great, but I can think of all kinds of ways that this would work out worse.

Well, all of that was a great deal of work, and I skipped many details, so this was the short version. However, Calculator.net says that if you invest $20,000 a year at 7%, after 14 years you would have $502,580.44.

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