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Old 09-24-2018, 07:47 PM   #571 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProDigit
Meanwhile the interior of the Nissan Leaf:
And I thought the dashboard on a 1302 Superbeetle looks busy:


http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/...n-beetle-4.jpg

If I had a Model 3 I'd have no choice:


https://images.fineartamerica.com/im...dall-scott.jpg

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Old 09-24-2018, 08:02 PM   #572 (permalink)
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Old 09-24-2018, 08:41 PM   #573 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProDigit View Post
On the contrary. Anyone doing more than 50 miles a day, and is stuck with his home 120V AC charging port, should not even consider an electric!

Add to the range issue, climate controls. In colder regions, cabin heating is a big part of energy consumption, while in hotter regions AC is even more draining than heating the cabin!

I've done the calculations, assuming I could charge my car 12 hours a day (at night), doing 70 miles a day, I would end up with a dead battery by friday.
This assuming nothing goes wrong with the charging process (like no one unplugs it, or no power outages occur).
Your math is too conservative, especially for a FL climate. Cabin heating typically draws much more power than cooling, and the overall range is drastically reduced by cold temperatures. Heat is no problem for a car like the Bolt or Model 3.

Let's say you could only charge 10 hrs a day on a 15A circuit (you never specified your capacity, so I'll assume the lower one). 10hrs * 120v * 12A = 14.4 kWh. Using a very conservative estimate of 4 m/kWh, you would add 57.6 miles of range every night, for a deficit of 12.4 miles. Over 4 nights (Monday - Thursday night charging), you would accrue a deficit of 50 miles. A 240 mile range Bolt would still have 190 miles of range come Friday morning, which is nearly 80% of the full range.

What is preventing a 240v outlet from being installed? Isn't there one for the cloths dryer or range already?

Quote:

Think about the original estimated cost of 64kWh at $10ct/kWh (a full charge is projected to cost you $6.5), actually ends up costing you 80 * 0.15 (15ct as your electric company will charge you more when your consumption goes up, and is never mentioned when selling an EV) = $12.

The actual price is almost doubled from what's originally projected.

Match this with statistics of EVs and gasoline cars doing 30MPG avg, and your EV which is projected to consume 1/3rd of the cost of a gasoline engine, is now consuming 2/3rds of the energy price of a gasoline car.
And it all makes no more sense to even think of EVs, until the overall purchase price of an EV becomes well within the 20-25% sales price of a gasoline car.
Every utility is different, but in Oregon the rate is $0.10/kWh regardless of how much you use, and in Washington $0.08/kWh. Consider it $0.11/kWh due to 90% charging efficiency. Assuming no rate change due to extra consumption, your 70 mile commute would consume 17.5 kWh (little more due to charge inefficiency, but compensated by 10% increase in price) and at $0.11/kWh, would cost $1.93.

My Prius gets 50 MPG, and at a cost of $3/gallon, would cost $4.20 for the same trip. That's more than double the cost using one of the most efficient vehicles made.

EVs are too expensive as you mention, but they are the ideal vehicle for commutes of 70 miles, or even twice that distance if 240v charging is available.
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Old 09-24-2018, 09:28 PM   #574 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
Your math is too conservative, especially for a FL climate. Cabin heating typically draws much more power than cooling, and the overall range is drastically reduced by cold temperatures. Heat is no problem for a car like the Bolt or Model 3.

Let's say you could only charge 10 hrs a day on a 15A circuit (you never specified your capacity, so I'll assume the lower one). 10hrs * 120v * 12A = 14.4 kWh. Using a very conservative estimate of 4 m/kWh, you would add 57.6 miles of range every night, for a deficit of 12.4 miles. Over 4 nights (Monday - Thursday night charging), you would accrue a deficit of 50 miles. A 240 mile range Bolt would still have 190 miles of range come Friday morning, which is nearly 80% of the full range.

What is preventing a 240v outlet from being installed? Isn't there one for the cloths dryer or range already?



Every utility is different, but in Oregon the rate is $0.10/kWh regardless of how much you use, and in Washington $0.08/kWh. Consider it $0.11/kWh due to 90% charging efficiency. Assuming no rate change due to extra consumption, your 70 mile commute would consume 17.5 kWh (little more due to charge inefficiency, but compensated by 10% increase in price) and at $0.11/kWh, would cost $1.93.

My Prius gets 50 MPG, and at a cost of $3/gallon, would cost $4.20 for the same trip. That's more than double the cost using one of the most efficient vehicles made.

EVs are too expensive as you mention, but they are the ideal vehicle for commutes of 70 miles, or even twice that distance if 240v charging is available.
I beg to differ again!
Cooling your car by 15 degrees, costs more energy, than heating it up by 15 degrees.
Once temperatures surpass 90F, AC systems become very inefficient.
And in cars like the Tesla, the battery pack and motors already offer heating for the car interior, by using the waste energy to heat the cabin.

What reduces range in cold climates is the batteries running not at their optimal temperature (below 75F), more so than the heater uses. (you could try this out, by comparing a 40F run raising cabin temperatures to 65F to a 60F run, raising internal temps to 85F. Your range will be longer at 60F than at 40F).
Also, many EV users, use seat heaters, rather than cabin heaters.
While seat coolers, don't exist.

Also, your math poses a lot of issues.
1- At first, you don't account for charging efficiency. It's usually at 90%, so a 64kW battery would take 70kW to charge. Fast charging reduces that efficiency by almost double, to 80kWh.

2- The cost of electricity usually rises once you fall in a higher threshold.
Here in FL, the cost for electricity is around 10ct/kWh. It would become 15ct/kWh if you surpass the 1000kWh/month quota.
I have a small home, in the winter it wouldn't be a problem, but in the summer, AC cost drive my average consumption in the 900kWh /month.
A car would certainly topple the 1000kWh threshold.



Many homes in the us have only single phase.
Dual/tri phase power isn't available everywhere.

And sometimes even single phase power outside of the home isn't possible; think New York, how will one charge his car when one is living on a tenth floor apartment with no EV accomodations in the parking lot (or no parking at all)?

Also the price of gasoline hardly ever has surpassed over $3/gal, only in 2015-2016. But gasoline here, has mostly been between $2.25-$2.79/gal for the past decade or two.

And like I mentioned before,
The AC drains too much power, that for my 12 hours per day charge, it won't keep up with my 70 mile run.
Unless I have a split weekend, or a day where I can leave the car charging 24 hours.
Not calculating if the breaker trips, power outage, or someone trying to be funny, by unplugging my car.

Last edited by ProDigit; 09-24-2018 at 09:34 PM..
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Old 09-24-2018, 10:25 PM   #575 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProDigit View Post
Many homes in the us have only single phase.
Dual/tri phase power isn't available everywhere.
You only need single phase into the home. You take two 120V circuits in your fuse box and combine them to get 240V. That is how residential homes get 240V for electric water heaters, stoves, clothes dryers, etc.

As to heating taking less power than A/C. I don't have to do the calculations, I have an EV. Heating takes roughly 3x more power than running the A/C even at 90-100F. Take a look at my fuel log. Those giant dips in the winter are from running the heat. My car has heated seats but those don't defrost / defog the windshield.

Last edited by JSH; 09-24-2018 at 10:36 PM..
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Old 09-25-2018, 10:44 AM   #576 (permalink)
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Went by too quickly to tell if the panel gaps were horrid.
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Old 09-25-2018, 11:26 AM   #577 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProDigit View Post
There's something terribly missing:

Like a grill.

Though newer models address this:
Ummm...you have that backwards. Bottom picture is the original Model S grill (2012-2015), top is current (2016- ).

I've seen at least one Model 3 every day for the past week. We have at least 3 in town now, one white, one matte black, one gray--and all wearing the aero wheel covers.
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Old 09-25-2018, 03:05 PM   #578 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ProDigit View Post
The Model 3 side shot, looks lots better than their predecessors, and better than the leaf. The leaf looks like an economy car, the Tesla like a sports car.
Well, the Leaf IS an economy car :-) But the Model 3 is not a sports car, and doesn't (IMHO, anyway) look like one.
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Old 09-25-2018, 03:10 PM   #579 (permalink)
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Define "sports car". Define "economy car". Please.
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Old 09-25-2018, 03:55 PM   #580 (permalink)
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Uh, no. You cant get 240 from a single phase standard house wiring. You need three wires which would be 2 phase plus ground/neutral. HOWEVER, there's is no limit you can run for current (well excepting for mains capacity). I've bought 120v 50 amp installs for routers when that was my only power option. Weird as heck plugs look like mini clothes dryer plugs.

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