Toyota to make some EV's. Why are they so ass-ugly?

[Flakbadger]

Originally Posted by JSH

You've had multiple options to buy a subcompact EV but it looks like you bought a midsize Leaf instead. If people that claim to want to buy a subcompact EV don't buy them why should manufacturers make them?

Today Mini will be happy to sell you a subcompact Mini EV for $30K ( which becomes $20K after rebates in Oregon). That is $6400 less than the gas version.

I bought a midsize Leaf because it cost me ~$11,500 for a basically brand new car. $16,800, minus $2,500 rebate, minus selling old Yaris to my dad for a commuter vehicle.

If I had 30 thousand dollars to spend on a car, I would just pay someone to convert a modern subcompact to electric. The Leaf was the only option that had a reasonable range and was a price I could afford.

When I bought the Leaf, if the Chevy Bolt had been in a price range I was willing to pay I would have bought one of them instead. But I can't imagine spending (at the time) $25,000 on a used car.

We bought my wife's Honda Fit ~6 years ago for $17,000 B-R-A-N-D N-E-W. So that's why I bought the Leaf; because it's a set of compromises to get me an electric car, now, that I can afford, with a reasonable-ish range.

If Toyota made a Yaris electric (or even a Corolla), I'd be all over it.

[redpoint5]

I'm 6'2" and like my seat very upright (I don't get slouching in a seat unless you're racing in an open cockpit). The only sedan I've ever had an issue with head clearance with is perhaps a Camry with moonroof. My hair would occasionally touch the headliner.

My Acura TSX has a moonroof, has 5.9" of ground clearance, and a 56.5" height. No headroom issues.

Sure, there are people taller than me, but do we really need more headroom considering most people slouch in their seats and are shorter?

Originally Posted by Flakbadger

We bought my wife's Honda Fit ~6 years ago for $17,000 B-R-A-N-D N-E-W. So that's why I bought the Leaf; because it's a set of compromises to get me an electric car, now, that I can afford, with a reasonable-ish range.

If Toyota made a Yaris electric (or even a Corolla), I'd be all over it.

That's what I'm talking about. $17k for a new car with 4 wheels. I don't get the trike pricing when you can get a new car for $17k, with a full warranty, and full safety features and testing.

There needs to be EVs selling at that price with no subsidies too. The Bolt is getting close with some reporting low $20s for a new one. I'm sure GM is taking a loss selling them so cheap.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Flakbadger

I bought a midsize Leaf because it cost me ~$11,500 for a basically brand new car. $16,800, minus $2,500 rebate, minus selling old Yaris to my dad for a commuter vehicle.

If I had 30 thousand dollars to spend on a car, I would just pay someone to convert a modern subcompact to electric. The Leaf was the only option that had a reasonable range and was a price I could afford.

When I bought the Leaf, if the Chevy Bolt had been in a price range I was willing to pay I would have bought one of them instead. But I can't imagine spending (at the time) $25,000 on a used car.

We bought my wife's Honda Fit ~6 years ago for $17,000 B-R-A-N-D N-E-W. So that's why I bought the Leaf; because it's a set of compromises to get me an electric car, now, that I can afford, with a reasonable-ish range.

If Toyota made a Yaris electric (or even a Corolla), I'd be all over it.

A Mini EV isn't $30K though. Sounds like you got the $2500 Oregon charge ahead rebate. That would bring the Mini EV down to $17,500 new after incentives. Getting the full federal EV tax credit and charge ahead rebate can be tough so the vehicle would likely need to be leased originally to get all the rebates.

My subcompact 2016 Spark EV lease was $100 a month zero down. It would have been about $11,500 to buy outright. Leasing and then buying would have been $13,000 total.

I don't know when you bought your Leaf but today the used EV market is full of cheap subcompact EVs for $10K or less.

You mention reasonable range. Reasonable range and subcompact do not go together. That is another reason manufacturers are moving their EVs to larger vehicles. If you want 150 or more miles of range you won't find that in a subcompact car.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I'm 6'2" and like my seat very upright (I don't get slouching in a seat unless you're racing in an open cockpit). The only sedan I've ever had an issue with head clearance with is perhaps a Camry with moonroof. My hair would occasionally touch the headliner.

My Acura TSX has a moonroof, has 5.9" of ground clearance, and a 56.5" height. No headroom issues.

Sure, there are people taller than me, but do we really need more headroom considering most people slouch in their seats and are shorter?

I'm 5' 9" and when I have the seat adjusted were I like it my hair almost touches the moonroof in my Jetta Sportwagen. I can't wear a ballcap. The rear seat is not comfortable for an adult for more than about an hour.


In your TSX your feet are likely out in front of you and your rear passengers likely have their hips lower than their knees. People don't want to sit like that, they want to sit like they are sitting in a chair. Raising the seat height also allows more comfortable rear seating without needing to stretch the wheelbase of the car.

[redpoint5]

If charge ahead is the subsidy for moderate income people, the only strategy I know of to both have enough federal tax liability and low enough income is have a modest income in the first place, and convert IRA money to a Roth, converting pre-tax money into post-tax.

It's a nifty way to essentially pay no taxes on the IRA account for whatever amount is needed to be converted to carry $7,500 in federal tax liability.

Originally Posted by JSH

I
In your TSX your feet are likely out in front of you and your rear passengers likely have their hips lower than their knees. People don't want to sit like that, they want to sit like they are sitting in a chair. Raising the seat height also allows more comfortable rear seating without needing to stretch the wheelbase of the car.

I don't remember the last time I rode in the back seat of anything. As such, I've never cared how comfortable it is back there, because anyone back there is getting a free ride. As Letterman says "It's a free show. You can't complain about a free show".

At any rate, I'd never take a small car on a long trip anyhow. Previously it would have been the Prius, and currently is the company CX-5. I've probably never driven the TSX for more than 2 hours, but I find it comfortable as the driver.

Speaking of the TSX, it probably did need to be raked out to accommodate the feet forward position, which might explain why school busses can make a tighter turn.

[Flakbadger]

I want something like the Honda E; https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/honda/e

That's got a larger battery than my current Leaf, and is much smaller. The price is, again, incredibly high---but used EVs are often in a price range I'm willing to pay. Instead we get more crossover SUVs. That's what I'm saying.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

If charge ahead is the subsidy for moderate income people, the only strategy I know of to both have enough federal tax liability and low enough income is have a modest income in the first place, and convert IRA money to a Roth, converting pre-tax money into post-tax.

It's a nifty way to essentially pay no taxes on the IRA account for whatever amount is needed to be converted to carry $7,500 in federal tax liability.

You can do that or you can lease the vehicle and have the leasing company roll the incentives into the lease deal.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I don't remember the last time I rode in the back seat of anything. As such, I've never cared how comfortable it is back there, because anyone back there is getting a free ride. As Letterman says "It's a free show. You can't complain about a free show".

My wife and I frequently hike, camp, ski, fish with other couples so having a vehicle that accommodates 4 adults is important to us.

Originally Posted by Flakbadger

I want something like the Honda E; https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/honda/e

That's got a larger battery than my current Leaf, and is much smaller. The price is, again, incredibly high---but used EVs are often in a price range I'm willing to pay. Instead we get more crossover SUVs. That's what I'm saying.

Top Gear put the Honda E up against the Mini EV and favored the Mini.

"So, you bag a quicker, more spacious car with 10–20 miles more real-world range, for two grand less. So much for the Honda’s ambitious clean sheet. Game, set and match point to the Anglo-Kraut."

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/big...-mini-electric

If the Honda E ever came to the USA (which it won't) it would have a similar range as the Mini which only manages 110 miles in EPA testing.

I know you know this but we won't get more subcompacts electric or otherwise unless people start buying subcompact cars in the USA. It really is as simple as that and automakers don't care what you and I buy in the used car market.

The Mini EV is the cheapest EV on sale in the USA and along with the BMW i3 the only remaining subcompact. If it doesn't sell we won't be getting more vehicle like it.

[Flakbadger]

Originally Posted by JSH

The Mini EV is the cheapest EV on sale in the USA and along with the BMW i3 the only remaining subcompact. If it doesn't sell we won't be getting more vehicle like it.

I take your point, but I hate that the option is to buy a car I have no interest in, or not get more cars that I WOULD have interest in!

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Flakbadger

I take your point, but I hate that the option is to buy a car I have no interest in, or not get more cars that I WOULD have interest in!

I get it. I prefer wagons but the cheapest wagon left in the US market is a $41,000 Volvo V60.

So it looks like my next vehicle will be a crossover.

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by JSH

Your Geo Metro has 6.3 inches of ground clearance. That is more than a Chevy Trax which only has 6.2 inches of ground clearance.

The Metro was fairly extreme for its ground clearance in its cohort.

Also, mine FORMERLY had 6.3" of clearance... :P

Chevy Trax which only has 6.2 inches of ground clearance.

The Chevy Trax is probably illustrative of the trend of going from a car to a CUV/Crossover format. It's built on the Sonic platform/chassis, which had 4.9" ground clearance.

I'd wager if you compared clearance for CUV's developed from car platforms, the majority (if not all) are jacked up relative to the car they're based on.