05-06-2010, 04:42 PM
|
#41 (permalink)
|
Master EcoModder
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth
Posts: 7,907
Thanks: 3,475
Thanked 2,950 Times in 1,844 Posts
|
Hi Robert,
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertSmalls
Or when you consider that power plants can only produce electricity at 30-40% efficiency *, it's 13.4KWh/gal, or 89mpge. Still impressive.
And don't judge it just by the amount of energy it consumes. America's fleet could use a little bit more flexibility when it comes to energy sources.
|
The "straight" energy conversion is ~33.4kWh/gal (depending on the type of gasoline you are assuming). If you are going to make electricity "account" for losses of generation and the grid, etc. then you need to do the equivalent thing for gasoline, right?
Energy is used for: exploration and development, drilling, transportation, refining, then more transportation, and then even the electricity to run the gas pump! Of course, you would then also include the equivalent for electricity -- but, if you do a source-to-wheels comparison, I think that electricity will still be the better way to go...
|
|
|
Today
|
|
|
Other popular topics in this forum...
|
|
|
05-06-2010, 05:19 PM
|
#42 (permalink)
|
Left Lane Ecodriver
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Posts: 2,257
Thanks: 79
Thanked 287 Times in 200 Posts
|
Neil,
The above figure accounts for the 83% efficient nature of oil exploitation, refining, and distribution. It also uses the 30.3% "lumped average efficiency of electrical production and transmission". Both numbers are from the US DoE.
|
|
|
05-06-2010, 09:27 PM
|
#43 (permalink)
|
Master EcoModder
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth
Posts: 7,907
Thanks: 3,475
Thanked 2,950 Times in 1,844 Posts
|
Okay, I think I get it -- they add the "losses" of the petroleum fuel to the energy in a gallon of fuel, and then take a percentage of that and that is the electrical equivalent? So:
1 gallon (of generic gasoline) = 13.4 kWh?
That seems a little skewed, still. That means that electricity has ~3X more losses than the whole petroleum cycle?
Lately, I have heard that petroleum exploration is ~15:1 ROI, and I have heard that the power used on refining alone would be enough to power EV's. Maybe, I'm wrong?
What are the grid losses, typically? I thought I heard it was only 10%; though a while ago, I had heard ~50%...
And they are not counting oil spills, probably?
|
|
|
05-06-2010, 09:47 PM
|
#44 (permalink)
|
Master EcoModder
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Ghettoville, USA
Posts: 251
Rebellion - '16 KMX Framekit Custom electric velomobile
Thanks: 149
Thanked 187 Times in 112 Posts
|
Damn... I had posted a topic on the evalbum entry without seeing this thread.
This car is extremely impressive, *especially* for the cost. I had thought of using a large truck, aeromodded like Phil Knox's T100, with 2,500 lbs of Trojan batteries in the back to get 200 miles range at 70 mph, but that would never come close to being this cheap... I had discounted altogether the idea of using a small car for such a thing because of the need for structural enhancements to handle the weight.
I wonder what structural mods Dave did to this to handle the weight? I am completely awed by this conversion. $3,000 is a good price... and if he sold these bodies as a kit, I'd be a buyer of one.
The top speed makes sense, given that it is a 72V conversion with no tranny. Up that to a 348V LiFePO4 pack and a Zilla 1k EHV, and see what she does... *drool*
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcb
I gotta say, there is nothing wrong with a 3200lb curb weight when you get:
200 mile range
72 mph top speed
$3000 conversion cost!!!
It's almost hard to believe.
|
It's not hard to believed. do some number crunching and you will see how and why this car performs like it does. It is amazing, but the claims are 100% feasible. Dave just happened to actually build something that can do it.
I think he will set a record with this car as soon as he gets the chance. Imagine if he had $30,000 to dump into a battery pack... The current world record with the Solectria Sunrise will have been tripled if that ever happens.
|
|
|
05-06-2010, 11:08 PM
|
#45 (permalink)
|
Master EcoModder
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Steppes of Central Indiana
Posts: 1,319
Thanks: 0
Thanked 186 Times in 127 Posts
|
Wow! Absolutely gorgeous work. And well enough engineered to get excellent performance even saddled with kludge batteries.
I wonder if he can work with a VW chassis. I'd love to see a TDI powered version.
__________________
2000 Ford F-350 SC 4x2 6 Speed Manual
4" Slam
3.08:1 gears and Gear Vendor Overdrive
Rubber Conveyor Belt Air Dam
|
|
|
05-06-2010, 11:36 PM
|
#46 (permalink)
|
Batman Junior
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,532
Thanks: 4,082
Thanked 6,978 Times in 3,613 Posts
|
That's is definitely amazing.
The best "granny-speed-oh-my-no-brakes!" efficiency I've managed to squeeze from the ForkenSwift, hypermiling the daylights out of it, was 168 mpg-e... but that's around an average speed of ~20 mph, not real world highway driving!
|
|
|
05-07-2010, 12:39 AM
|
#47 (permalink)
|
Too many cars
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York State
Posts: 1,605
Thanks: 1,355
Thanked 801 Times in 477 Posts
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertSmalls
When turning right, your driver's side engine would rev up higher, and your passenger's side engine would slow down. That might tend to have a destabilizing effect. I guess you could just let off the "throttle" in a corner.
|
I wouldn't expect any more destabilizing effect than with a normal open differential. Try a pickup truck with a locking diff on snow if you want to experience some destabilizing.
__________________
2000 Honda Insight
2000 Honda Insight
2000 Honda Insight
2006 Honda Insight (parts car)
1988 Honda CRXFi
1994 Geo Metro
|
|
|
05-07-2010, 04:49 AM
|
#48 (permalink)
|
Master EcoModder
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,523
Thanks: 2,203
Thanked 663 Times in 478 Posts
|
Ugh.......I polished my headlamps today......
Boy.......that guy sure knows how to upstage a website!!!!!!!
Sorry, that was my inside voice.
wow.
|
|
|
05-09-2010, 11:24 PM
|
#49 (permalink)
|
Master EcoModder
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Maynard, MA Eaarth
Posts: 7,907
Thanks: 3,475
Thanked 2,950 Times in 1,844 Posts
|
|
|
|
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to NeilBlanchard For This Useful Post:
|
|
05-09-2010, 11:36 PM
|
#50 (permalink)
|
EcoModding Apprentice
Join Date: May 2008
Location: N. Saskatchewan, CA
Posts: 1,805
Thanks: 91
Thanked 460 Times in 328 Posts
|
I wonder if the lack of triangulation has or will cause problems. At least, with a more trike-like rear track, the need for torsional rigidity goes down.
|
|
|
|