VW TDI vs. Gas comparison

[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

Not true. . .It's per RPM which is not equal to horsepower. Go get tested. They will monitor your rpms and find out how much your outputting.

For consistency, the test is at a given rpm.... The standard doesn't need to be rpm based - it's simple a statistical control. So, if your particular year motor requires <500{unit} @ 2500rpm - that's what is tested. That doesn't mean the 500{unit} figure only takes rpm into consideration, it's a constant parameter calculated from some other function (power output, cc, class, etc. etc. etc.).

Getting tested won't tell you anything about how the standard was made I can buy a 12" ruler, but it won't tell me how the standard of one inch was developed

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All that said, last I checked, TierII emissions standards are in grams per mile. Weather or not you get 10mpg or 100mpg, the grams per mile figure does not change.

So yes, you might take a consumption hit - no, you won't put out more pollutants. The emissions standards control that

And on the Subject of consumption increase..... red= decrease from previous year - green = increase from previous year... I'm using the Jetta for consistency.
2009 Jetta Automatic Diesel 2.0L 29/40 enter Full TierII Compliance
2006 Jetta s6 Automatic Diesel 1.9L 30/38
2005 Jetta s6 Automatic Diesel 1.9L 30/38
2004 Jetta s5 Automatic Diesel 1.9L 28/39
2003 Jetta s5 Automatic Diesel 1.9L 29/40
2002 Jetta s5 Automatic Diesel 1.9L 29/40
1999 Jetta s5 Automatic Diesel 29/40 Prior to TierII Transition


OK, manual gearbox
2009 30/41 6 speed gearbox enter Full TierII Compliance
2006 30/37 5 speed
2005 32/41 5 speed
2004 32/42 5 speed
2003 35/44
2002 35/45 5 speed
1999 35/44 5 speed

2009 - 140hp
2006 - 100hp
2005 - 100hp
2004 - 100hp
2003 - 90hp
2002 - 90hp

Lets recap this timeline.....
Decent FE before TierII transition period begins in 2003
TierII Transition begins 2003 - no significant change in FE numbers
2004 - Horsepower goes up, FE drops
Tier II Full Compliance begins 2009
In 2009 we only see a drop in mpg for auto city by 1mpg, otherwise we maintain or gain with an additional 40 hp over the most recently retired diesel
1mpg, not even significant.....



I hear you (by you, I mean in a general sense) saying that emissions standards are killing FE for diesels.... I'd believe you if it weren't for the fact that emissions standards are NOT killing FE as according to fuel economy testing

Is fuel more expensive? Potentially accurate - it's hard to control economy statistics, but I'm inclined to think yes. But that's not the point I'm addressing which is fuel consumption with the addition of more stringent standards

My Source to Explore

[theunchosen]

Originally Posted by trebuchet03

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All that said, last I checked, TierII emissions standards are in grams per mile. Weather or not you get 10mpg or 100mpg, the grams per mile figure does not change.


My Source to Explore

So if my Del Sol all of a sudden only consumes one gallon of fuel per year(no driving distance changes) my emissions don't go down?

emissions are not magic, they come out of gasoline(or diesel).

Let's talk pre-cat.

over the course of a week we will say I use 10 gallons with everything(cat, pipes, muffler) intact(350 miles). Let's say I pop all of that out in favor of a more efficient FE system and gain 5 MPG.

So week One I have 10 gallons of emissions that hit the cat. Week two I only use, 8.75 gallons of emissions. However on week two all of those emissions make it into the atmosphere, whereas in week one a very small part do. If you look through all my posts I never disagreed with that.

The argument is global emissions. Not just your tailpipe.

It takes way more emissions to get the gasoline(diesel) into your tank than your car could yield without any cat. If you want the proof its 7-8 posts above when I ran a thorough analysis of 2 different refineries to make the case refineries and electrical plants alone produce more emissions than your car. Then add in the emissions generated from transit(Oceanic, pipeline, diesel truck) and its really not even close. Just the amount of emissions produced to get the electricity to do the refining creates more emissions.

SoD, has a very legitimate point that may be the reason emissions are regulated on cars. coal plants and refineries are usually distanced from population centers, but your tailpipe is not.

That said I'd still rather push global down and the local up because alot of countries have no intention of mitigating theirs just because. However if you give them a car that gets phenomenal mileage they will limit it anyway by consuming less fuel.

[tjts1]

I checked the prices of 3 local gas stations that carry both regular unleaded and diesel fuel.
87 octane = $1.85-1.91
Diesel fuel = $3.11-$3.19!!!
Diesel is 67% more expensive than regular unleaded. Diesel is dead.

[theunchosen]

Originally Posted by tjts1

I checked the prices of 3 local gas stations that carry both regular unleaded and diesel fuel.
87 octane = $1.85-1.91
Diesel fuel = $3.11-$3.19!!!
Diesel is 67% more expensive than regular unleaded. Diesel is dead.

I totally agree here. diesel is a buck more per gallon here. . .gas is only 1.56. it's almost 2x as expensive and doesn't get 2x mpg. . .

Not to mention the fact an 88 CRX could get 51 mpg stock, costs under 5,000 and costs less than 5,000 to have virtually everything replaced lol.

[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

So if my Del Sol all of a sudden only consumes one gallon of fuel per year(no driving distance changes) my emissions don't go down?

Potentially - keep in mind that small motor scooters, despite their lower consumption have been found to pollute more that farm equipment in grams/mile. Your consumption doesn't change the standards you are required to meet - if you're a motor scooter, those standards are super lax.

over the course of a week we will say I use 10 gallons with everything(cat, pipes, muffler) intact(350 miles). Let's say I pop all of that out in favor of a more efficient FE system and gain 5 MPG.

Please, tell me where you see gallons of fuel in the grams per mile unit.

It doesn't matter how many gallons you burn - that is not what standard controls.... It's purely emissions per mile weather or not you burn 10 gallons, 12 gallons, 20 gallons etc.


If you feel emissions on the refining/distribution side is something less than optimal at this current time... Then write your representative(s) to enact and enforce stricter emissions standard - ask them to join the lawsuit in progress. Going backwards on end user emissions so sludge eating oil tankers and refineries put out less is just idiotic. You can't rob Peter to pay Paul and expect to win.

At least we have 35mpg in new cars by 2020 (which should help with the distribution side)... But that still puts us behind China, EU, Japan..... Other indicators say we're done being number 1 anyway

And again.... I fail to see where the new stricter standards are slashing FE, hindering innovation, etc....



Despite new emissions regulations in the mid 70's, 90's and now 00's - mpg figures are still going up, emissions per mile are going down and power output is going up (personally, I'd rather see more flat hp curves in favor of mpg gains... bugger).

Annual Energy Review 2006 - Energy Perspectives

[tasdrouille]

Originally Posted by tjts1

I checked the prices of 3 local gas stations that carry both regular unleaded and diesel fuel.
87 octane = $1.85-1.91
Diesel fuel = $3.11-$3.19!!!
Diesel is 67% more expensive than regular unleaded. Diesel is dead.

Originally Posted by theunchosen

I totally agree here. diesel is a buck more per gallon here. . .gas is only 1.56. it's almost 2x as expensive and doesn't get 2x mpg. . .

You guys are extremely shortsighted. Since Feb 2007 the average weekly price gap between ULSD and RUG in the US has been 11%.

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by tasdrouille

You guys are extremely shortsighted. Since Feb 2007 the average weekly price gap between ULSD and RUG in the US has been 11%.

We're not short sighted. I would love to own a diesel car if it passed California emissions (im not going to own some 20 year old smoke bucket) and the cost of diesel fuel was consistant with gasoline. Even if diesel cost 10-20% more than gasoline consistently over the long term, I would happily drive one. But the volatility in diesel prices is insane. Here in California, the 11% average difference you quoted (i have no idea where you pulled that number from) simply doesn't apply. I've never seen diesel for less than a 20% premium over regular unleaded over the last 3 years. Maybe there are other parts of the country where diesel makes sense but not here.

Originally Posted by trebuchet03

The only thing this graph proves is that there is absolutely zero correlation between peak HP and fuel economy and people's hatred of powerful cars is totally misguided. You simply can't trade one for the other.

[tasdrouille]

Here's for California. Actually in California the gap has been only 5.7% Between the two fuels.



Weekly California Regular All Formulations Retail Gasoline Prices (Cents per Gallon)
Weekly California No 2 Diesel Ultra Low Sulfur (0-15 ppm) Retail Sales by All Sellers (Cents per Gallon)

[trebuchet03]

Originally Posted by tjts1

We're not short sighted. I would love to own a diesel car if it passed California emissions (im not going to own some 20 year old smoke bucket) and the cost of diesel fuel was consistant with gasoline. Even if diesel cost 10-20% more than gasoline consistently over the long term, I would happily drive one. But the volatility in diesel prices is insane.

2009 TDI is a 50 state Diesel

Originally Posted by LATimes

The Jetta TDI was the first European-made diesel car certified in all 50 states, passing even California's super-strict emissions standards. It went on sale in August. Powered by a hyper-clean 2.0-liter direct-injection turbo-diesel, the Jetta doesn't require exotic post-combustion exhaust treatments as do vehicles with larger engines (such as Mercedes-Benzes, Audis and BMWs). The offending NOx molecules in the Jetta's exhaust are trapped in a special catalyst and burned as engine conditions allow. There is a very slight diesel clatter from the engine bay, but no smoke or smell. In almost every respect, the diesel system is transparent to the driver.

Originally Posted by tjts1

The only thing this graph proves is that there is absolutely zero correlation between peak HP and fuel economy...

Saying that graph shows zero correlation is quite fallacious.... It doesn't say there is a direct link either. It's a sales rated graph. The point of those graphs is to show how both power output and fuel economy have increased since implementing emissions legislation.

And here in California, your 11% average (i have no idea where you pulled that number from) simply doesn't apply.

I didn't say it, nor am I aware of the trends The only thing I've looked at recently, with respect to diesel prices, is the number's AAA reports The last time I lived in CA, I was mostly oblivious to fuel prices because I went car less (Hooray Bike, Bart and Muni)

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by tasdrouille

Here's for California. Actually in California the gap has been only 5.7% Between the two fuels.

Sorry but thats simply not true. Anybody living in California can tell you that. And when diesel costs 67% more than regular unleaded you can bet that the local VW and Mercedes dealers aren't selling any diesel cars.