Warm air intake and water injection?

[Dust]

Christ, alot of stuff, including an earthquake happened during that time.

Daox, I am already running a nozzle before the throttle body that is boost activated. I agree it doesn't make sense normally to warm it and cool it, but this site proves that normal doesn't always matter.

I question moving the IAT, because of where it is currently located. There are places after the turbo, and after the IC to mount an IAT, but they didn't. That makes me wonder if there isn't a second sensor hooked up somewhere near the TB. It's speed density, so the temperature is important, and taking just the air filter measurement doesn't make much sense. There may be a logarithm that calculates temp based on the air filter temp, speed and boost. I don't know. The car is a MY1999, which means the year before JOBD. I have the port, but scanguage just times out no matter what I try.

[Dust]

Originally Posted by ConnClark

water injection before the turbo will cause erosion of the impeller. Think about the bits of metal will do to your engine. I'd also suggest you read this before considering a warm air intake on a turbo'd vehicle Compressor Efficiency and More

Pre-compressor injection can cause erosion. Seen the image. If I remember correctly the owner was also lacking an air filter on a dirt road. Saab did this and realized that the turbo would only last 100K miles. Most turbos only last about 100K miles. http://saabworld.net/f70/turbo-s-wat...ept-88-a-1341/
That was in the 80's using a washer fluid pump. At 150 psi an M1 nozzle will get about a 20 micron mist. The air filter I am using right now can't average that. Like removing your windshield because the blower motor went out. Add that pre-turbo injection can move the compressor map right, increasing efficiency. I have been using it for about 15K KMs, with no noticeable erosion.

If I don't like the hot air, there is a nice plastic panel that can be removed and then the filter would have a direct feed from the grill. Can't get much cooler than that. Or I can just loosen the worm clamp and slide the regular hose back on. Might have to take the grill off though. Some screen mesh to replace the panel and no worries about debris.

[gone-ot]

...hotter AIR can "hold" more WATER VAPOR, the inverse of cold AIR can't "hold" much water vapor.

...water vapor acts as a "detonation" deterent; BUT, too much water vapor reduces the amount of AIR (oxygen) being drawn into the engine because the water vapor has displaced it (for equal volume, more of onething means less of the otherthing).

[ConnClark]

Originally Posted by Dust

Pre-compressor injection can cause erosion. Seen the image. If I remember correctly the owner was also lacking an air filter on a dirt road. Saab did this and realized that the turbo would only last 100K miles. Most turbos only last about 100K miles. Turbo "S" - Water Injection installation instructions - Sept '88
That was in the 80's using a washer fluid pump. At 150 psi an M1 nozzle will get about a 20 micron mist. The air filter I am using right now can't average that. Like removing your windshield because the blower motor went out. Add that pre-turbo injection can move the compressor map right, increasing efficiency. I have been using it for about 15K KMs, with no noticeable erosion.

Here is the original post of the picture. He had the nozzle 12" away. It was after 1 year of use and had never been run without an OEM airfilter.

Compressor after 1 year of precompressor injection. - waterinjection.info

My turbo lasted over 200K miles before I replaced it and that was on a diesel where it was operating under boost most of the time.

I always wondered why you don't see many saabs on the road these days.

I have no doubt pre compressor water injection works. It is just that a turbo is an expensive component and eventually your going to erode the blades to where it off sets any gains. If you have money to buy turbos that is fine.

If I don't like the hot air, there is a nice plastic panel that can be removed and then the filter would have a direct feed from the grill. Can't get much cooler than that. Or I can just loosen the worm clamp and slide the regular hose back on. Might have to take the grill off though. Some screen mesh to replace the panel and no worries about debris.

The point about the warm air intake and a turbo is that it drops the efficiency of the compressor. For the 2.0 liter engine case in the article an increase from 77 degrees F to 122 degrees F increased the load on the engine by 11.9 HP or about 8% of the engines power.

[Dust]

Originally Posted by ConnClark

Here is the original post of the picture. He had the nozzle 12" away. It was after 1 year of use and had never been run without an OEM airfilter.

Ahh, that thread. There are alot of things that make me throw out that thread as a sample of bad things that can happen.

1. Unless the blades were cooked(overheated), the black stuff on the turbo shouldn't be there. i understood he bought it that way. I bet a whole lot of oily crap from everywhere in my intake system was dumped into my oil after running some water through the system.
2. .6mm nozzle. If memory serves, I think that is close to 4-5 gph. All companies but AIS say to stay at 2gph or below.
3. No info on intake setup. Distance from the turbo is trumped by straightness of the pipe before the turbo. With my current tube I am in the middle of a 12" straight shot to the turbo, because it gives the air a chance to straighten out, and it puts it right after the BPV recirculation point. With the filter, there will be no bend to gather fluid.
4. Depending on settings, and the size of his turbo, he could simply just be flowing more that his pipe and turbo can handle. Would a t76 take that much sure, but I know that my q37 would not go quietly into that good night with that much flow. I don't think that my 1.875 diameter pipe would be happy with that much flow, especially air that is uncompressed and heated.

Originally Posted by ConnClark

I always wondered why you don't see many saabs on the road these days.

I think faulty PCV systems and the resultant massively sludged engines would be more the cause,

Originally Posted by ConnClark

I have no doubt pre compressor water injection works. It is just that a turbo is an expensive component and eventually your going to erode the blades to where it off sets any gains. If you have money to buy turbos that is fine.

The engine in this style car is built with a 100K KM life expectancy. Vehicles are junked here as fast as some people sell cars in the US. The car will get at most another 10K KM from me, and will either be sold or scrapped. The turbo is a 60,000 yen component, and is made to wear out. The lack of oil changes by the PO as evidenced by the crap on the bottom of the oil cap and the varnish on the rocker cover is much more likely to kill a turbo, and quicker, than the slow performance degradation of an inefficient wheel. Friend just last year had a turbo take a crap on her because she forgot to change the oil. Lack of oil to a turbo is a great way to melt the CHRA.

Originally Posted by ConnClark

The point about the warm air intake and a turbo is that it drops the efficiency of the compressor. For the 2.0 liter engine case in the article an increase from 77 degrees F to 122 degrees F increased the load on the engine by 11.9 HP or about 8% of the engines power.

I am looking more into this right now. At 6 psi the temps will drop with the addition of the fluid, and I honestly don't think that the temps will be that much higher than with the current setup that is just a vent behind the headlight.

[Dust]

Sorry, I misquoted.

It caused compressor blade erosion after 100,000 miles, and with the aid of a 10 power lense, there was enough erosion to predict a useful life of only…200,000 miles. It also allowed boost to be increased from 20 psi to 24-26 psi.

[ConnClark]

Discoloration of a compressor wheel can come from crank case ventilation. So the color of the wheel is no sign of its integrity.

Another thing you have to consider with erosion is that it may not happen on all blades evenly. In fact if you take a close look at that picture you can see that some of the blades have a much more rounded corner than the others. Although this difference may not seem like much this will throw the rotating part of the turbo out of balance and lead to excessive wear on the bearings. As turbos spin up to 200K rpm this has to be considered.

[Dust]

I was stating that the fact that it had the discoloration on it meant that his spray wasn't working right. If it was any color, it would be blue or green, the colors of windshield wiper fluid. Water/meth gets rid of alot of oil and other residue, and cleans out enough contaminants that companies suggest oil and filter changes after 500-1000 miles of using the kit.

Again, if SAAB using a washer pump determined a 200K mile lifetime, I don't think a 140 psi pump with the smallest nozzle available connected to a solenoid 5 inches from it will cause problems in 30K KMs. If it does, and the turbo starts to make noise, then 60,000 yen will be sent to buy a reman. turbo. The benefits of a cooler turbo when pushed harder can't be denied. The bad part of more performance is short lifespan. I don't see the guts of the turbo making it too far through the IC and taking out the engine, if that is what you are commenting on.