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Old 11-24-2009, 08:45 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by hyperMPGaccord View Post
Here are some of the contestants.
And you think those look terrible? Though I could quarrel with a few minor points, like the huge badge on the orange one, or the transparent canopy (which around here means solar oven about 2/3 of the year) on the first gold one, I'd be happy to have any of them. I think you must have had your sense of taste surgically removed at some point :-) Maybe you could show us what you think looks good?

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What is a car getting 100mgp worth over the 5 years of ownership? Just based on gasoline savings (~$9000) over 5 years.
I know I've said this before, but for me the price of gas is pretty much irrelevant, at least in the sense that I'd buy a car to save money on gas. I buy fuel-efficient cars because that's what I like, same as some people pay for big engines, or lifted SUVs with brush guards & winches when the closest they get to off-road is the outer wilds of the parking lot at the local mall.

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Old 11-24-2009, 09:01 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jamesqf View Post
I know I've said this before, but for me the price of gas is pretty much irrelevant, at least in the sense that I'd buy a car to save money on gas. I buy fuel-efficient cars because that's what I like, same as some people pay for big engines, or lifted SUVs with brush guards & winches when the closest they get to off-road is the outer wilds of the parking lot at the local mall.
I did the math on this myself. Upgrading from 30mpg to 70mpg will save me 150 gal/yr, or some $450/yr. But going from 70mpg to 100mpg, I only save 40gal/yr, or $120.

Considering that I got in to a very thrifty little car for ~$5000, they'd have to sell their X-car for around $5500 for me to buy it for economic reasons.
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:15 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dcb View Post
Hows that for optimism

Unless it is public domain, it will get bogged down in money issues for another decade.
The EPA had a 3800 pound test mule hydraulic hybrid that got 80 MPG ten years ago.

Ingo Valentin claimed 130 MPG for his design ten years ago.

Basjoos is close to 80 MPG.

Take all the mods combined, aero, LRR tires, preheated intake air, hot coolant into the engine, and all the rest, and you have already reached 80 MPG. Then add a power train that automatically compensates for all conditions. Idle stop, 85% regeneration of all deceleration energy, down to 0 speed, at all 4 wheels, and you have the recipe for 100 MPG.

Now the real challenge is 100 MPG at 70 MPH

Throttle less engines, variable compression, no valve train, specific best BSFC operational parameters, and you will get very close to 100 MPG at 70 MPH.

Maybe I am optimistic.

After studying it for close to a decade, the only real question is how to get 100 MPG at sustained high speeds.

I have already seen 81 for 22 miles at 60 MPH on my own car, and many have done close to 100 in manual Insights.

That's ten year old technology. Now we are on the threshold of 100 MPG in a 2500 pound 5 passenger sedan with all the modern bells a whistles, while reducing emissions to a level of insignificance.

"No brag just facts"

You will see it in 5 years, mark my words.

It will not be expensive, and it will make what we have today seem like an ancient technology that was extraordinarily wasteful.

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Old 11-24-2009, 09:30 PM   #14 (permalink)
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For every dollar we do not send overseas, financial institutions create 10 dollars in circulated wealth. It's not just not sending it overseas, it's a direct injection of capital into our economy.

If you want prosperity stop bleeding our national net worth to finance terrorism.

If you want clean air stop using 82% of the fuel you consume creating pollution.

How much more would you pay?

Now about nothing.

How much more maintenance and component replacement costs would you endure?

How about less than you spend now.

I worked on them for a living for 60,000 hours.

I can probably name every part on a car by sight, except some of the electronic stuff that now comprises most of the change in cars.

Most of the power train components have not changed significantly in my lifetime.

It's all obsolete and has been so for at least 5 decades.

Rip apart a truck differential from today, and one from 1950. They are the same.

Rip apart a transmission from those two eras, basically the same.

Pull an engine apart, basically the same.

It's about to change and it may happen a lot faster than you think.

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Old 11-24-2009, 09:36 PM   #15 (permalink)
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gawd, dude, facts now to back up claims now. not claims now and facts 5 years from now. patents don't mean squat, charlatans use them as well as they are used to keep things out of circulation.

What have you actually tested?
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Old 11-24-2009, 11:33 PM   #16 (permalink)
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X-Prize VW1L and Tandem Seating

As my login name suggests, I commute to work long distances.
Urban to rural at 50 miles one way. Pretty much all highway, so takes me a little over 50 minutes averaging around 60 mph.

100 mpg is really not that hard to get at hwy speeds if you have the correct aerodynamics and appropriate sized engine. Having the 2-person tandem seating or just a one seater and reducing the frontal area is huge for efficiency.
I am excited to see these ultra efficient vehicles coming out in X-Prize, and also at the 09 Frankfurt Autoshow, my dream car, the VW 1L. (Hybrid Diesel getting 170 mpg at ~MSRP of $30K) Probably not coming to US though.

Which brings me back to what would I pay for 100mpg vehicle?
Of course it depends on what the gas is, but say $3 and in my scenario:

I would love to have just a 1 or 2 Seater Tandem vehicle, 3 wheels is cool $down, a conventional IC engine, have some commuter friendly items such as AC/Heat, MP3 stereo, cruise for the price of a motorcycle ~ $10K.
This way I could keep my Fit for it's awesome cargo capability.

Now If I had the money, I would pay much more for something that is cutting edge and a very advanced design, like the VW 1L, with really my overall main motivation to reduce my personal carbon footprint.

I hope this ultra efficient vehicle trend takes, it sickens me to see all the people commuting every day to work, ALONE!!!, in these big SUVs, Trucks, Sedans.
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Old 11-25-2009, 06:02 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Hi,

The Aptera 2e gets the equivalent 851mpg (by the EPA's conversion of electricity to gasoline, which is 33.4kWh/gal IIRC). It goes at least 100 miles on a charge (that's with 2 people, luggage and the A/C on) and ~120 miles with one person commuting. Charging it costs $1-2, depending on the electric rates.

Too bad its production is still up in the air...
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:30 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RobertSmalls View Post
Considering that I got in to a very thrifty little car for ~$5000, they'd have to sell their X-car for around $5500 for me to buy it for economic reasons.
I think you're falling into a logical trap set up by the original poster. It's not properly a question of how much MORE you would pay, but of what mpg you'll get for the money you're going to spend on a car.

Say some of those X-prize cars go into production, as they are. Now unless they're plug-in hybrids with lots of expensive batteries, there's no real reason why they should cost more than "normal" cars, is there? So for the people who buy new cars, the choice is going to be between e.g. a $20K conventional car, and a $20K X-prize car that goes 4-5 times as far on a gallon of gas. And which, to some of us, looks infinitely cooler :-)

So fast-forward 5 or 10 years. Your thrifty little car has gone to that great wrecking yard in the sky, so you need to replace it. Some of the X-prizers have entered the used-car market. So do you spend your $5K budget on one of them, or the used conventional car?
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Old 11-25-2009, 02:32 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Well, they are almost all Trying harder for good styling than good streamlining. It isn't easy. My collection of pics of efficient cars is a warning against letting engineers draw anything visible. It would be nice, however, if a stylist and an aerodynamicist were to collaborate some day. Here's one from the late 70's with a cd of .201 Popular Science - Google Books which was at least associated with a styling house.
The article makes many good points, and the illustration shows the steepest rear window I'd trust with my air - 22 deg. A newer design would probably do more to fair the wheels.

Last edited by Bicycle Bob; 11-25-2009 at 03:21 PM.. Reason: P.S.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:59 PM   #20 (permalink)
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If buy a new ICE car with no mods Toyta Iaris or Civic with no modifications for $15K basic trim, you save right there $5K by not buying the hybrid for over $20K. Most people think why more hasle when you can do simple. On the other hand if you buy like me used car and may be fix it up, why spend more money to improve any thing. Just to make it clear bought Accord 88LX-i of ebay.com for $380 and Yes it needed a lot of work. Total cost stands at $1014 including trasportation, tax, parts etc. At this point the car delivers 30mpg. Ok, not bad, but i want more. Try to do anything to improve the MPG you just simply invest more $$$ into it. Now if you plan to go around the world, yep do all the mods, you will need them. Let say i want pulsens hybrid mod. The guy sells the mod for $3500 + bat $400 + onbord charger $??? and now the car stands at $6000/7000. New Kia Rio goes for $10k + is new + gets better milege. I admire and really agree with all you people who do this little things just to squize any extra MPG, but really does it work or is it the inner satisfaction that we have achived something?

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