10-03-2013, 12:54 AM
|
#171 (permalink)
|
EtOH
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North Coast, California
Posts: 429
Thanks: 72
Thanked 33 Times in 24 Posts
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Tele man
Sorry, but my data indicates that "Flex" engines not incorporating turbochargers (to yield variable-compression ratio operation) have been LESS efficient...only those engines capable of operating at higher CR can effectively "use" the higher octane value of E85 and so advance timing to produce more HP...but NOT better fuel economy, ie more distance per gallon.
|
False, flexfuel engines have been advertised as making more power on Ethanol since they were introduced. 99% of them are Naturally Aspirated and have exactly the same compression ratio as their non-FFV versions to allow for efficient operation on Gasoline.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Tele man
True in "short-duration" operation for diesels (CI), but not under continued long-duration operation because gasoline/alcohol 'solvent' is damaging to injectors, because the injectors rely on diesel for lubrication...which E85 lacks. The new gasoline direct-injection (GDI, SIDI, etc.) engines will 'test' the quality & durability of new piezo-injectors with gasoline AND E85.
|
False, long term reliability studies show little to no degradation with Ethanol. I have only heard anecdotes of fuel injectors clogging due to Ethanol picking up crap from the fuel tank. But never outright failure of fuel injectors. Piezo injectors aren't used in everything. Ford is using cheaper units for their DI FFVs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Tele man
Current EPA regulations effectively dictate SI "closed-loop" engine operation at stoichiometric (~14.7:1 A/F) because of the catalytic convertors; hence, the days--and discussions--of "lean-burn" operation is meaningless.
|
I was referring to Diesel Engine operation a.k.a Compression Ignited Engines. I apologize for the confusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Tele man
At one time the industry 'standard' was 8-hours driving at 50 mph, or 400 mile range, per tank...with tank "capacity" being 'sized' to achieve that range (roughly). Today, the 'standard' is more like 8-hours at 65 mph, or 520 miles expected range. And, since "fuel" is sold by volume, it isn't surprising that some people WANT as much range from each gallon they pay for as possible. It's called being 'conservative/frugile' rather than being 'extravagant/wasteful.'
|
It's called being penny smart and pound foolish. You give up something of minor benefit now to lose out on a greater gain in the future.
__________________
-Allch Chcar
|
|
|
Today
|
|
|
Other popular topics in this forum...
|
|
|
10-03-2013, 01:02 AM
|
#172 (permalink)
|
...beats walking...
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: .
Posts: 6,191
Thanks: 179
Thanked 1,521 Times in 1,122 Posts
|
Sorry, but the 2013 EPA MPG listings show that most FFV vehicles achieve only 0.65-0.75 the MPG value on E85 that they do on gasoline.
And, while obviously NOT "real world," the EPA numbers are VERY consistent in their testing methodologies...something that drivers are not.
Also, HP efficiency is totally different than FE efficiency...go back and re-read my original statement:
"Sorry, but my data indicates that "Flex" engines not incorporating turbochargers (to yield variable-compression ratio operation) have been LESS efficient...only those engines capable of operating at higher CR can effectively "use" the higher octane value of E85 and so advance timing to produce more HP...but NOT better fuel economy, ie more distance per gallon."
...where "...my data..." refers to EPA published numbers, NOT anecdotal numbers.
Finally, just for final clarity: I am referring only to spark-ignition gasoline engines running E0 through E85 fuels, with the assumption that E85 operation was "designed into" the engine mapping to make it a "Flexible Fuel Vehicle" (FFV) certified to have a yellow-fuel cap. Your comment about E85 being usable in diesel (CI) engines is where I responded about injector problems occuring IN DIESELS because of solvent action of E85...I said nothing about SI engines.
Last edited by gone-ot; 10-03-2013 at 01:23 AM..
|
|
|
10-03-2013, 01:20 AM
|
#173 (permalink)
|
(:
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,746
Thanks: 1,573
Thanked 3,517 Times in 2,201 Posts
|
That F150 trip: $2.41/g E85 and $3.53/g regular. Do that math.
|
|
|
10-03-2013, 01:35 AM
|
#174 (permalink)
|
...beats walking...
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: .
Posts: 6,191
Thanks: 179
Thanked 1,521 Times in 1,122 Posts
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee
What about the rest of what I said?
|
Can't argue your experience, only quote what the 2013 EPA MPG lists for the Ford 5.0L V8 Pickup 2WD FFV (page 18):
15/21 MPG - GAS
11/15 MPG - E85
...sure looks like a LOSS in fuel economy on E85 to me, ie: 0.73 MPG in city and 0.71 MPG on the highway. Either way, both are ~30% LOSS in MPG.
Last edited by gone-ot; 10-03-2013 at 01:53 AM..
|
|
|
10-03-2013, 01:38 AM
|
#175 (permalink)
|
EtOH
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: North Coast, California
Posts: 429
Thanks: 72
Thanked 33 Times in 24 Posts
|
EPA numbers for E85 are untested. Read the section on the fuel economy website for Ethanol testing.
__________________
-Allch Chcar
|
|
|
10-03-2013, 01:41 AM
|
#176 (permalink)
|
...beats walking...
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: .
Posts: 6,191
Thanks: 179
Thanked 1,521 Times in 1,122 Posts
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allch Chcar
EPA numbers for E85 are untested. Read the section on the fuel economy website for Ethanol testing.
|
I know, see my earlier post (#52) in this thread:
http://ecomodder.com/forum/384243-post52.html
...and the numbers printed in the EPA MPG listing are "...provided by the vehicle manufacturers."
Last edited by gone-ot; 10-03-2013 at 01:51 AM..
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to gone-ot For This Useful Post:
|
|
10-03-2013, 06:21 AM
|
#177 (permalink)
|
Master EcoModder
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: RI
Posts: 674
Thanks: 368
Thanked 216 Times in 133 Posts
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee
That F150 trip: $2.41/g E85 and $3.53/g regular. Do that math.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Tele man
...sure looks like a LOSS in fuel economy on E85 to me, ie: 0.73 MPG in city and 0.71 MPG on the highway. Either way, both are ~30% LOSS in MPG.
|
Even if it is a ~30% loss of MPG ... isn't it still a net benefit when regular costs ~46% more $ per gallon ?
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to IamIan For This Useful Post:
|
|
10-03-2013, 11:13 AM
|
#178 (permalink)
|
(:
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,746
Thanks: 1,573
Thanked 3,517 Times in 2,201 Posts
|
It appears that aspect is being ignored.
|
|
|
10-03-2013, 03:20 PM
|
#179 (permalink)
|
...beats walking...
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: .
Posts: 6,191
Thanks: 179
Thanked 1,521 Times in 1,122 Posts
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee
It appears that aspect is being ignored.
|
Not by me or the OEM manufacturers who catagorically declare (in their Owners Manuals) that: (a) their vehicles are NEITHER designed, tested, nor certified for E85 and, therefore, (B) use of E85 voids their warrantee.
If a car is beyond its manufacturer's warrantee period, I see no problem in "experimenting" so long as one is willing to take the risk, otherwise, I adhere to the axiom, "When in doubt...don't."
YMMV.
|
|
|
10-03-2013, 03:38 PM
|
#180 (permalink)
|
(:
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,746
Thanks: 1,573
Thanked 3,517 Times in 2,201 Posts
|
It has been quite a long time since I owned anything with a warranty!
That said, fuel systems have been ethanol resistant since 1989 so whatever I have from then to new enough to have a warranty, I wouldn't sweat any ethanol fills. The OEMs simply don't want to have their stealerships flooded with people crying about CELs, even though the CEL is simply saying "Oops, Mr. Computer has maxed out the fuel trim and Mr. O2 says it still isn't quite rich enough!"
But you've STILL ignored the aspect I was talking about. :/
Yes, that would be the cost per mile or cost per gallon or just plain cost.
|
|
|
The Following User Says Thank You to Frank Lee For This Useful Post:
|
|
|