Woohoo! The mother earth hybrid plans came today!

[cleanspeed1]

Originally Posted by Ryland

They are conveniently vague, is that 90mpg starting out with a full battery and ending with a dead battery or running purely off the generator? know how the sales people of plug in hybrid kits like to market their product I would have to say that the 90mpg is ending with a dead battery and if so then how big is that battery and how much energy was used?
This is why I like solid numbers all around, I'm not trying to put down the hybrid idea but I like honest information.

This is the whole point of putting the thing together.

When I read the article, I took it as meaning that the generator system was running continuously while the truck was in operation.

The system is designed around 36 to 48 volts ( so 3 or 4 12V batteries ).

I think you are looking at "battery only" operation and that's not how it works.

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by cleanspeed1

I think you are looking at "battery only" operation and that's not how it works.

No, I'm looking at the generator size and thinking to my self that the math is not adding up so they must be pulling power from some place else and where else could they pull power from? how about that nice battery pack over there! then I'm looking at how every plug in hybrid is touted as getting great mileage because they have a set of batteries that are going to give say a 20 mile range so they go for a drive and exclame about how little gas they used but never talk about the electrical side unless pressured to do so, so you might get 90mpg on a short trip but the longer your trip is the worse your mileage will be.
Also going with a higher voltage then 36v or 48v is going to be more efficient because you are going to have less loss in your wiring, that low voltage also limits your top speed, my 48v electric car tops out at about 40mph because it starts drawing to many amps, I drove an electric car that had 3 sets of batteries, still all wired up at 48v with two 48v motors and that one, pulling over 600 amps could get up to 55mph, but the amp draw at that low voltage gets to be really high, a motor like an air craft starter motor is going to be designed to handle even more amps but you are still going to need massive wire.
I've seen Ben's plug in hybrid and quizzed him about it and his generator it seems is undersized as well for doing cross country trips but it does work for extending the range and aside from owning my own electric cars I do my best to get in the drivers seat whenever I can as well and check out the gauges as I'm driving.

[dcb]

I have to admit I'm concerned about your expectations here CS1, ryland is discussing the mpg figures where the battery is making a contribution to those miles as well as the generator. I appreciate you want to test it out, but you are partially motivated by the claims being made it seems, and we are not entirely sure they make sense to start with.

I think it is ok to have a hypothesis, an understanding of as many variables as possible, before doing an experiment. In fact the more variables you can nail down the better. I'm concerned at the level of wishful thinking and there are some red flags as well, such as the suggestion of using a 2 stroke, which historically have worse efficiency than 4 strokes.

Please don't continue unless you can afford to. I know others are rooting you on, but there will be genuine costs in time and money, and if you are expecting 90mpg in a van on a gasoline 2 stroke without battery contributions, then, well, don't. I cannot read your mind or your plans, just want to know that you understand the potential realities and the costs beforehand.

[cleanspeed1]

Originally Posted by dcb

I have to admit I'm concerned about your expectations here CS1, ryland is discussing the mpg figures where the battery is making a contribution to those miles as well as the generator. I appreciate you want to test it out, but you are partially motivated by the claims being made it seems, and we are not entirely sure they make sense to start with.

I think it is ok to have a hypothesis, an understanding of as many variables as possible, before doing an experiment. I'm concerned at the level of wishful thinking and there are some red flags as well, such as the suggestion of using a 2 stroke, which historically have worse efficiency than 4 strokes.

Please don't continue unless you can afford to. I know others are rooting you on, but there will be genuine costs in time and money, and if you are expecting 90mpg in a van on a gasoline 2 stroke without battery contributions, then, well, don't. I cannot read your mind or your plans, just want to know that you understand the potential realities and the costs beforehand.

Yer just egging me on dcb, and well, I think you already figured out that conventions don't bother me. Except if the food is bad. Then you have to complain.

I am not looking to get 90 mpg in a van. I am going build this thing because there is something that needs to be investigated, and further, nothing gets done in this life if all you do is stop because the chatter is saying "I don't think it will work based on blah, blah, blah". You sit down and figure it out, you get with people who want to figure it out and figure it out. The inventor of this system saw a problem and dealt with it in his own way, and it worked for him.

I think somewhere along the way, dcb, you have forgotten what other members have done here. The Open Revolt controller built by a math teacher, the AeroCivic built by a guy with some cheap materials that cut the Cd in half, the ForkenSwift, and I can go on. These folks inspire me. I want in on the fun, and I am going to do it.

Tell you what, go buy the plans and solve the "problems" that you see with the design, whether perceived or actual. Stop the criticism and pull out the wrenches. Anyone can get on a keyboard, with no skin in the game and go on and on about the lack of viability of something even though they never built the thing themselves, to prove out whether it works or not.

Since you obviously have a problem with the series hybrid, and have written extensively about it, what would you do differently? What kinds of things can be made or done to reduce the losses that you have graphed out?

More importantly, what hard data do you have that can support your argument? I'm not talking anecdotal, I'm talking actual. Forget the theoretical, have you built something like this that you can say " I put measuring devices to it and this is what happened?"

[dcb]

I promise not to say "I told you so", you have gotten the best advice I can offer you, now I would suggest you recruit some of your cheer leaders to do some heavy lifting to see how devoted they are, and get some expert advise from the forum on data acquisition.

You can of course build as you go, but you will almost always get better results by thinking things through before jumping in. I assume a goal is improved efficiency, that will be a metric that is being watched closely, without fudging it with wall power.

[cleanspeed1]

Originally Posted by dcb

I promise not to say "I told you so", you have gotten the best advice I can offer you, now I would suggest you recruit some of your cheer leaders to do some heavy lifting to see how devoted they are, and get some expert advise from the forum on data acquisition.

You can of course build as you go, but you will almost always get better results by thinking things through before jumping in. I assume a goal is improved efficiency, that will be a metric that is being watched closely, without fudging it with wall power.

You haven't passed on anything, except an opinion that has no substantive proof. You've been here longer than me, and you know better than to offer criticism without data.

The onus is not on me, it's on you. I don't know what will happen, but I will find out. You don't know but are relying on what others have done, but have not proved yourself. Therefore you have a credibility problem.

And the fact still remains that you are opposed to something that you have not built in order to quantify performance and have a metric to share.

Oh, and one other thing...................

I don't have to prove anything to you, dcb. This is for me, and anyone else that is interested in doing something like this. You have your mind made up.

So get outta my way.......

I have a hybrid to build.

[dcb]

so many misconceptions... Go, build it, whatever, don't post rubbish.

[Ryland]

Originally Posted by cleanspeed1

More importantly, what hard data do you have that can support your argument? I'm not talking anecdotal, I'm talking actual. Forget the theoretical, have you built something like this that you can say " I put measuring devices to it and this is what happened?"

My data is based off of real life driving of EV's along with comparing my results to the published results of others as to how much energy it takes to go a given speed and how much energy per mile an electric vehicle tends to use, even the winning car in the Solar Racer competition used 1,200 watts to go around 55-60mph in a super streamlined vehicle that weighs around 350 pounds, so a vehicle like that could do a cross country road trip running off a lawn mower engine powered generator, but every electric car that I've driven uses at least 5 times that amount of energy to go down a flat road.
I'm not saying that a design like the mother earth news published will not work, but I am saying that how they write about it and word their claims tend to be miss leading, because they say that it can do a handful of tasks but they never say that it can do all of them together, they never outright give it's specs with it's limitations, like they say it can go 90 miles on a gallon of fuel but how far can it go on 5 gallons of fuel?
The solar racer that I cited above went over 450 miles on a single charge and they said that to go that far they needed 90% of the power to be coming from the solar panels, 1,000 watts of solar while drawing 200 watts from the battery and if they went faster and started drawing 1,400 watts then they could only go 225 miles.
That is why I think that a hybrid like that first off needs more batteries and 2nd needs a larger generator, because the claims that are being made don't agree with the math from real life use and testing, I'm not saying that it will not work but it will not work as well as it could or as well as you think it might from reading the plans.

[cleanspeed1]

Originally Posted by Ryland

My data is based off of real life driving of EV's along with comparing my results to the published results of others as to how much energy it takes to go a given speed and how much energy per mile an electric vehicle tends to use, even the winning car in the Solar Racer competition used 1,200 watts to go around 55-60mph in a super streamlined vehicle that weighs around 350 pounds, so a vehicle like that could do a cross country road trip running off a lawn mower engine powered generator, but every electric car that I've driven uses at least 5 times that amount of energy to go down a flat road.
I'm not saying that a design like the mother earth news published will not work, but I am saying that how they write about it and word their claims tend to be miss leading, because they say that it can do a handful of tasks but they never say that it can do all of them together, they never outright give it's specs with it's limitations, like they say it can go 90 miles on a gallon of fuel but how far can it go on 5 gallons of fuel?
The solar racer that I cited above went over 450 miles on a single charge and they said that to go that far they needed 90% of the power to be coming from the solar panels, 1,000 watts of solar while drawing 200 watts from the battery and if they went faster and started drawing 1,400 watts then they could only go 225 miles.
That is why I think that a hybrid like that first off needs more batteries and 2nd needs a larger generator, because the claims that are being made don't agree with the math from real life use and testing, I'm not saying that it will not work but it will not work as well as it could or as well as you think it might from reading the plans.

So that we are clear, the comments were not directed at you Ryland. I have taken what you are saying just because you and rmays actually own EVs and have experience with them. You had nothing to do with what I said.

Based on what I have seen so far, I can see where improvement can be made, most importantly in the controller that he used because although it is really simple, it requires a person to do too much stuff while driving, where all you should do is just get in, turn a key and go and all the functions of accel and regen are not seperated from the gas pedal.

[Quasimoto]

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

The only only reason why this happy place, ecomodder.com, should exist is for experimenters who don't argue but head to the garage with test intruments in hand and tools in the other. Those who can back up their reports with gas reciepts and odometer readings and not just the blind parroting of what they think others have once claimed.

So I wish you GOOD LUCK and please share your results.

Bob Wilson

I only wish everyone on this site felt the same way. Thanks again