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Old 01-10-2014, 05:01 PM   #161 (permalink)
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I give you a thanks for your desire to discuss the subject at hand.

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Originally Posted by ChazInMT View Post
Rusty, I lost all confidence in you over the GEET reactor discussion. I changed my formulas that you pointed out. It was a silly mistake by me, I was thinking the middle carbon atoms in the chain each had 1 Oxygen attached, even though in my mind I was picturing 2....go figure....and the Carbons on the end of the chain had 2, and I pictured 2...Derp 6+4 equaled 10, C8H10 Bzzzzzzzzzzzzt....No. I'm sorry, the correct answer is C8H18. I was wrong.

Now tell me where exactly I'm wrong in my facts regarding HHO and the possibility that it could ever produce a positive energy output. You seem quick to want to put me down on formulas, what about my logic and numbers involved in the process. Where am I wrong there??? Let's learn something.
All your formulas and numbers are correct ( except for your typos ) in the classical sense. But, you ignore what part hydrogen plays in the reactions, on a chemical level.

You are correct in stating that hydrogen is part of the combustion equation. However, it is the smaller part of the mass and energy potential. It does play a significant role in the reaction rate however. I outlined the process in simple form in a post above. You already brought up the classic NASA paper that showed a few percent increase in efficiency for a few percent input of hydrogen ( sub combustible mix - less than 4%).

Imagine if you will, the 18 hydrogen atoms in an octane chain, cut loose by the hydrogen added by the HHO device. Given the right conditions, as I outlined earlier, this is a very plausible outcome. Your small and insignificant amount of HHO results in a large percentage of hydrogen in the combustion mixture. Now, the flame front can follow the classic studies of hydrogen augmented combustion with local concentrations exceeding 4%. But, you must have the right conditions - conditions that elude the HHO supporters thus their applications work erratically or not at all.

As you know, this is precisely how the GEET is supposed to work - decompose the chain to get a useable amount of hydrogen gas to aid combustion - pre engine. But, the very efficiency you gain results in a drop in exhaust temperature and the device stops working. I have seen the phenomenon in person. To the consternation of the builder and promoter. But, catalysts' are advancing rapidly. In the years to come, maybe they can get devices such as the GEET to work in low temperature ranges.

At this point, there really is only one thing to do - build it and see.

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Old 01-10-2014, 05:07 PM   #162 (permalink)
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I understand that and appreciate your bringing it up.

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Originally Posted by P-hack View Post
I thing you can appreciate that, even though well qualified as a single data point, such a claim (even with lots of data points) would need to be backed up by describing the procedure well enough for independent verification as well as what was used for a control, before expecting folks to believe it was not a simple error.
But that data is not mine to disclose. Thus, my desire to do my own research - to have more control in the dissemination of the information I produce.
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Old 01-10-2014, 05:11 PM   #163 (permalink)
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I don't make the claims of the HHO scammers.

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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
So then why are they in the unicorn corral?

Waste all the time you want just don't poison the ecomodder community with BS.
And my electrolysers are used in industrial and medical applications.

Read my posts. Let's see if I can make this work effectively in an auto application. Even if it is a small measured gain.
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Old 01-10-2014, 07:45 PM   #164 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
This is all of course highly simplified to the point of being incorrect on some details, but it does drive home the point - in a gasoline engine, a small amount of HHO can tip a sub-critical detonation engine into faster more efficient combustion.
Where is the evidence for that? That famous NASA study has already been recently referenced, and showed no such gains, especially for the minuscule amounts of H2 that is generated from a bubbler. Or are these gains only realizable with a magical amount, no more and certainly no less than 0.xxx% ??
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Old 01-10-2014, 07:52 PM   #165 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
So then why are they in the unicorn corral?

Waste all the time you want just don't poison the ecomodder community with BS.
Taking the wider view, the electrolysis bubblers work "well" because they bubble. Burning the bubbles also work well, but it doesn't improve efficiency.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:05 PM   #166 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ChazInMT View Post
I don't even know where to begin here again.

First off, let me say I'm not attacking you, just the stupid notion that HHO can even begin to work. If you're that vested in the idea that HHO is the greatest thing since the wheel, and any attack on it, is one on you, then I guess I'm attacking you. I do not care for LugNutz, if you are him posting as 2 people, then .....well that would just be weird.

What "Claims" have you made?

You still have not defined anything, just a bunch of crap about how we're all too stupid consider open and closed loop thermodynamics. That's it. Explain the difference to us and how it allows the hydrogen produced by an HHO system to create 10 times the energy when used as a fuel supplement as it would just being burned on its own. I really want to hear how this works!!! I don't want to hear speculation, I want to see factual numbers, then we can discuss that instead of discussing how badly we treat people. WTF is so hard to grasp about that!!??!!! Lets talk FACTS, Science! You only seem bent on trying to prove we're all a bunch of Jerks instead of being bent on describing the wonders of HHO.

Let's see some numbers!!!! Give us formulas and percentages of energy in vs. energy out with HHO and without and how much HHO is being generated and combusted. Show us how HHO Works!!

Don't rip on me.....tell me where my logic is wrong? I laid out facts, and as far as I can see, the only rebuttal you have to any fact I stated deals with U235 which is an enriched form of Uranium that has a large macroscopic cross section of absorption of thermal neutrons making it an ideal submarine reactor fuel, and hydrogen being used to create a fusion reaction on the nuclear scale......Now just keep going down the path that you're going to create fusion in the combustion cylinders of the car and that there is proof that you're just a galactic moron. I will attack you at that point, personally, professionally, in any way I can cause there ain't no fusion goin on in no cars.

Please....No more "you called me this" and "you just fail to consider that" "Validate this" "Ego That" "Ur all just a bunch of meanies" "Generating Browns Gas creates a quantum singularity in the combustion cylinders allowing the fusion of hydrogen to use the power of the sun to fuel our cars"

Numbers, formulas, volumes, joules produced, joules used in the process. ANYTHING Please!!!

Also, you do realize this is a discussion forum in a fringe website with zero influence on society in general....most people here just like thinking about this stuff and are mildly entertained on accounta some unfulfilled need we have from our spouses, moms, dads, or pets or something. (at least that's my story) Your 3/5 conditions....and bold statements about terms of not posting for 60 days & such seem sort of out of place here. It's just a forum.
Little spot of bother middle of nowhere, Tx. Pardon any delays in participation, and cell may be spotty. If things are ok could be back 1 day. Should pass just south of ecotex on the way back if he'd like an opportunity to better express himself. ?
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:07 PM   #167 (permalink)
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:31 PM   #168 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
But that data is not mine to disclose. Thus, my desire to do my own research - to have more control in the dissemination of the information I produce.
I can appreciate that, and sorry the pressure plug is crazy expensive (probably $20 in parts if anyone is looking for an open source project to start, and a brake horsepower dyno project would be nice too ).

But you kinda did release "data", so can you help me understand what controls were used? The reason I ask is because presumably the FVT xprize team did tune for a specific rpm in a series hybrid, and despite having an engine running a generator and charging/discharging a battery, and finally running an electric motor, they were showing good numbers. And they didn't use HHO. So it is possible you managed to recreate peak bsfc tuning as well (which would fall off sharply) and the hho was a red herring.

Last edited by P-hack; 01-10-2014 at 09:37 PM..
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:45 PM   #169 (permalink)
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Unless you are willing to discuss radicals and rate of reaction . . .

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Originally Posted by UFO View Post
Where is the evidence for that? That famous NASA study has already been recently referenced, and showed no such gains, especially for the minuscule amounts of H2 that is generated from a bubbler. Or are these gains only realizable with a magical amount, no more and certainly no less than 0.xxx% ??
there is little else to do but to simply do.

I will build it and see what we get. This is certainly more than any of you have done.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:50 PM   #170 (permalink)
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No, not a red herring at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-hack View Post
I can appreciate that, and sorry the pressure plug is crazy expensive (probably $20 in parts if anyone is looking for an open source project to start, and a brake horsepower dyno project would be nice too ).

But you kinda did release "data", so can you help me understand what controls were used? The reason I ask is because presumably the FVT xprize team did tune for a specific rpm in a series hybrid, and despite having an engine running a generator and charging/discharging a battery, and finally running an electric motor, they were showing good numbers. And they didn't use HHO. So it is possible you managed to recreate peak bsfc tuning as well (which would fall off sharply) and the hho was a red herring.
Without the small amount of HHO, the mixture would not ignite reliably.

Edit:Posted accidentally in my haste to leave the shop.

I do agree the spark plug pressure sensor seems expensive for what it is in components. It might be worth something to the forum community to have such a sensor for engine tuning. As such, I'll look into fabrication of one unit before I break down and purchase a commercial unit. All we really need is a pressure trace in comparison to crank position to allow us to see any and all effects. I understand there are several techniques for noise cancellation. It's just a matter of looking into it.


Last edited by RustyLugNut; 01-10-2014 at 09:59 PM.. Reason: Content.
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