Project: Rebuilding an '01 Honda Insight as a nonhybrid

[theunchosen]

Sorry basjoos, I didn't mention you because he pointed out the reasons against the geos.

They would just have to ignore your existence since its a honda.

[wwkayaker]

To make your point to the world, you will need emissions testing showing that it exceeds the standards for the current model (2009 or 2010 if completed in 2009). Many car manufacturer's blame the emissions standards for the low mpg. Besides, what good is an efficient car if you don't know how much pollution it is now creating? (rhetorical) I am not kidding myself, I am here to reduce my cost at the pump with a side benefit of helping protect the environment. Also, I am not trying to make a statement like you are. I applaud you for taking on such a challenge and opening yourself to such scrutiny.

[theunchosen]

I think if he just mates up 09 emissions cat to it(or mates the original and compares to that and then mates up with an 09/10) that would be sufficient proof.

Yes of course you would need a true blue emissions test from the EPA(not your muffler shop that does emissions tests) to really send shock waves, but thats a long ways out and pretty easy to accomplish.

[rkcarguy]

I too have become disgusted with what new cars have become, and am on the path to building my own. I found it pathetic that when I looked to replace my 1993 Civic Sedan, nothing beat it for performance (I have a B20B with integra LS tranny), mpg, insurance cost, and parts/maintenance costs. Thanks to a tuned ECU I see 30-33 mpg average from a 2300# LX sedan.
As a japanese engine importer in the past, I found my business under extreme scrutiny for just importing used engines. A myriad of rules and regulations regarding small diesel engines rated by output, size and age, etc. I regularily compared myself with Nicholas Cage in "lord of war", because it seemed it was that bad at times dealing with government BS and all the grey areas in the regulations.
You wouldn't believe the crap that car makers have to go thru between the EPA, USDOT "safety requirements"-think all the liability and lawyer crap we have here, and the patent system...yes the patent system. US automakers and oil companies have been on the ball with buying up and burying technology by scarfing up the patent rights as new and competitive things come along.

[theunchosen]

Originally Posted by rkcarguy

I too have become disgusted with what new cars have become, and am on the path to building my own. I found it pathetic that when I looked to replace my 1993 Civic Sedan, nothing beat it for performance (I have a B20B with integra LS tranny), mpg, insurance cost, and parts/maintenance costs. Thanks to a tuned ECU I see 30-33 mpg average from a 2300# LX sedan.
As a japanese engine importer in the past, I found my business under extreme scrutiny for just importing used engines. A myriad of rules and regulations regarding small diesel engines rated by output, size and age, etc. I regularily compared myself with Nicholas Cage in "lord of war", because it seemed it was that bad at times dealing with government BS and all the grey areas in the regulations.
You wouldn't believe the crap that car makers have to go thru between the EPA, USDOT "safety requirements"-think all the liability and lawyer crap we have here, and the patent system...yes the patent system. US automakers and oil companies have been on the ball with buying up and burying technology by scarfing up the patent rights as new and competitive things come along.

Its cheaper for them not to have to develop new tech for cars if they do it unilaterally.

In I think 67(its 63 my bad) Chrysler released 200 turboshaft driven cars. Got equivalent gas mileage for a large family car but had no issues starting in the cold and reached optimum engine temperature in seconds. Considering small turboshafts output 1.4 hp/lb you might want to look at one for your power plant. They are inefficient outside of high rpm so you would want to make sure the gears put you at 35, 45 and 60-70 at the top end of a gear(where the gear can handle because the turbine can handle alot more rpms)

to get 70 hp you would only need theoretically a 50 lb engine(opposed to 200+ for whats in the insight). Might be hard to find but there are smaller ones that could be siwtched to turboshaft and coupled.

[RobertSmalls]

Gas turbine engines are cool, and very large scale ones are very efficient. They're great for stationary applications like power plants, and good for ships, trains, and tanks, but there are good reasons we don't see them in small cars.

They're expensive, and you need an airplane mechanic to service them.

It takes time for the turbine to get up to speed or spin down, so the throttle respone would be terrible. The amount of power a car needs varies more quickly than does the output of a turbine.

Small (30HP) turbines might be good as a range extender for an electric car such as the Volt or Aptera 2h. The primary concerns for such power plants would be low weight, small size, good efficiency, and low cost. Gasoline engines take up a lot of space, and turbines might be a solution.

[soycory]

what about a motorcycle engine?

[theunchosen]

Typically whenever I have seen a motorcycle engine dropped into a car chassis they get worse mileage than before(either when more engine volume is added or when its less). That said they are usually lighter than car engines but a little bit of weight savings at the cost of engine efficiency is not a good trade. If you are aiming for more power thats a good thing because typically bike engines produce more power, at the cost of efficiency, but still gain in weight reduction.

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

Typically whenever I have seen a motorcycle engine dropped into a car chassis they get worse mileage than before(either when more engine volume is added or when its less). That said they are usually lighter than car engines but a little bit of weight savings at the cost of engine efficiency is not a good trade. If you are aiming for more power thats a good thing because typically bike engines produce more power, at the cost of efficiency, but still gain in weight reduction.

Unless he goes with a 2 cylinder 2 cycle turbo 660cc front wheel drive motor from a Kei car like my daihatsu move, with the associated CVT transmission they get 50mpg and the van weighs 2100lbs, also the motor and all other associated parts bolt out as one single unit including wheel ends and could be easily dropped in since there is little in the dash needed to run them. Also the motors weigh significantly less than the insights motor and drivetrain. They are also compatible with a CAT and have pollution controls. The entire motor and associated components fits in a significantly smaller engine bay than the insight has.

Worth a look if he can find a junked out FWD Japanese mini truck, kei car or kei van.

Also Isuzu diesel motors "should" fit in there, available overseas are several Isuzu diesel pickups that net over 50mpg and domestically the old Chity Chevettes had a small Isuzu diesel that could net over 50mpg (manual trans) in a bricklike chevette.

I think there are options but a lot of work is ahead. And I do agree with his initial rant, its more accurate than most rants I read.

Cheers
Ryan

[AJI]

Originally Posted by basjoos

Another possible engine/tranny swap would be to use the 50 hp/74 ft-lbs unit from the diesel version of the Smart fourtwo. That's what's being used in the current version of the Avion, an automotive X-prize contender that's getting well over 100 mpg.

That was my second thought when I was reading this thread. My first thought was the 1.4 3-cyl turbodiesel that VAG used in the VW Lupo and Polo, the SEAT Arosa, the Skoda Fabia and the particularly efficient Audi A2. Fantastic little engine that and makes 75bhp/144 lb-ft, or even 88bhp/170 lb-ft in later models, and was capable of 80-ish mpg (in UK gallons). Not sure how light it is, and to be frank availability in the States probably isn't it's strong suit, so the diesel smart unit is probably a more realistic idea.

Originally Posted by soycory

what about a motorcycle engine?

Typically, small-capacity motorcycle engines lack torque (naturally, with the clue being small-capacity) so whilst on power they might seem adequate, and in a light motorcycle they might use barely any fuel, in a heavier car they end up having to be worked much harder to get anywhere and achieving poorer fuel figures as a result. They're only really suitable for very light kit-car projects and similar.