2023 Toyota Prius - WOW!

[JSH]

Originally Posted by hayden55

Why would the car need premium fuel, is this in writing some where? They have been 13:1 atkinson cycle since the beginning. I will agree that premium fuel is probably going to see a benefit in knock reduction and timing increases, but the cars have been rated for 87 for a long time. I know very few cars that get a mpg increase high enough to warrant the 20% extra fuel cost for premium here in a normal state with normal fuel prices.

The 120 hp Prii have used 87 for decades. The 200 hp 2023 Prius uses 91. The 91 octane requirement was reported over on Prius Chat. Someone read the fine print on a 2023 Prius ad.

Originally Posted by hayden55

Also, if anyone thinks a Chevrolet Bolt will be cheaper to own that a Toyota Prius is not wise. GM is so good at building unreliable cars that you are told not to park the Bolt in your garage for safety. WTF is that lol
Honestly, with the price of electricity and regular gasoline here locally and considering pack replacements on a bolt and prius in the future around 10-12 years on average... I see no roi on a Bolt over a Prius. More than likely the Bolt will be much more expensive to own. I'm convinced the Prius is the cheapest car you can own if you are slightly handy. The $150 difference in registration fees every year already cancels out the fuel saving here locally so its really a non starter just from that.

Our 2005 and 2009 Prii were the cheapest cars we owned - until I leased a 2016 Spark EV. The EV had roughly half the running costs even if I had to pay to charge. (We have free EV charging at work)

Paying for charging I would be at $0.035 per mile for fuel and scheduled maintenance for the Spark EV.

The Prius was $0.073 for fuel and scheduled maintenance back when 87 octane was less than $2 / gallon.

That is $4,500 in savings over 10 years / 120K miles.

Now I have a 2017 Bolt EV. Got a new battery with a new warranty this year so the battery will be under warranty until the car is 12 years old or 135K miles.


Registration of course is state by state. Oregon charges extra registration fees for EV and high mileage ICE vehicles.

[redpoint5]

I'm surrounded by various uncompleted projects myself. Started to tear into my motorcycle to check valve clearances, but noticed I probably need to replace all the rubber lines and such, and started thinking the valve checks were unnecessary since everything is running fine, and people all tell me it won't be out of spec.

Always tough for me to decide what projects are worth my time. Then there's the other problem of some projects being more fun than others. Inevitably I'll pick something more interesting over something more important.

[hayden55]

Panasonic cells on the Chevy Bolts? If so thats a sweet deal. If they are LG cells though... yikes.
Yeah its weird how that works on local rois. Here electricity for the last 12 months has been 18.2c/kWh every month. Gas has probably averaged $3.15 and right now its $2.89. Also, if you become an overuser they give you an overuse fee on your electricity per kwh over a certain amount lol
Also, regi fee for prius is $50 and the bolt is $250 a year. So it ends up being cheaper to drive a prius. lol
Especially when you factor in they will both need a battery in 12 years (statistics wise). You will have to throw the Bolt away and reuse the old battery as the new battery will probably be 5-10 times the price of the cars value at that time. I'm guessing 20 grand.

Damn Isaac sell me that prius. I could fix it for almost nothing. And yeah the core fee is weird. It makes more sense to not send in your battery and just sell it off locally instead. My core fee for my pack if i decide to get one is a LOT lower it was wild lol. Imagine the $10 core fee on lead acids... it was like that just a bit more.
Fix that poor gen 2 dude those things will literally do 500k miles lol. I'm supposed to be the one with a ****ty prius i have a 2010.
From what ive seen the ring stick is just that. Its not destroying the cylinder walls at all. Once i get my personal projects finished up i plan to just drive around picking up priuses and fixing them and selling them.
Sorry for the off topic. Ah that makes sense. Sounds like a huge timing increase with some more vvti action to get those nice numbers on the new ones.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by hayden55

Panasonic cells on the Chevy Bolts? If so thats a sweet deal. If they are LG cells though... yikes.
Yeah its weird how that works on local rois. Here electricity for the last 12 months has been 18.2c/kWh every month. Gas has probably averaged $3.15 and right now its $2.89. Also, if you become an overuser they give you an overuse fee on your electricity per kwh over a certain amount lol
Also, regi fee for prius is $50 and the bolt is $250 a year. So it ends up being cheaper to drive a prius. lol
Especially when you factor in they will both need a battery in 12 years (statistics wise). You will have to throw the Bolt away and reuse the old battery as the new battery will probably be 5-10 times the price of the cars value at that time. I'm guessing 20 grand.

Chevy Bolts use LG cells. It was an LG manufacturing defect that caused the recall and they paid about 95% of the cost of the recall. Customers got a new battery with a new 8 year / 100K mile warranty. Customers with older Bolts like me got a battery that was 10% larger and a bump in range. I wasn't worried about the old pack and I'm not worried about the new one. (There were about 15 Bolt battery fires worldwide)

I do most of my charging at work. For the Spark it was about 90% and with the Bolt it is about 60%. (I charge at home some because a 250 mile range makes it useful for longer trips vs the 80 mile range from the Spark). The more electricity cost the quicker solar pays back. Even at $0.15 / kWh installing solar is cheaper than my current power bill. We just won't be in the house long enough to go through the trouble.

I have no idea where you are getting the idea that either a Prius or a Bolt will need a new battery at 12 years. I would expect 15 to 20 years with a longer life for the Bolt as it is very unlikely to actually fail completely - the range will just get shorter and shorter with time. Even at 1/2 capacity it would still have double the range of the Spark EV I drove 8,500 miles a year. At 12 years old I expect to have 70 - 80% of the original capacity. I don't abuse my battery with a lot of fast charging and deep discharges.

By the time a car is 20 years old it is basically time for a new one. It is a major or a couple minor repairs away from going to the scrapyard. I would love to have an old Bolt battery with 50% capacity for home back-up. That would run my almost all-electric house for a day in the winter and 3 days in the Spring / Fall.

[hayden55]

Just reading all of the prius forums. Normal non ecomodder folks typically need a battery swap on the prius around 200k/12 years. Its easy to know because you get a check hybrid system and the motor runs longer and longer until it just stays on for the most part, and then the car becomes more of a moving road block.

The Bolt will probably just be condemned to a range of 90 miles or something and then someone will take the pack and use it for a power wall.

Ah thats sucks. We all know LG makes junk cells in the 18650 world. Hopefully this doesn't piss you off, but the Bolt is another example of why to avoid LG products. In my real world life everything LG i've had so far has been junk or failed as well lol. So stove, tv, phones, etc... they all died early uncessesary deaths

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by JSH

By the time a car is 20 years old it is basically time for a new one.

Model T and the VW Beetle scoff at your lack of faith.

[hayden55]

Average car on the road is 12 years old so it is slightly important.

Plenty of old toyotas are still worth good money at 20 years old because people know they are still good vehicles.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by hayden55

Just reading all of the prius forums. Normal non ecomodder folks typically need a battery swap on the prius around 200k/12 years. Its easy to know because you get a check hybrid system and the motor runs longer and longer until it just stays on for the most part, and then the car becomes more of a moving road block.

The Bolt will probably just be condemned to a range of 90 miles or something and then someone will take the pack and use it for a power wall.

Ah thats sucks. We all know LG makes junk cells in the 18650 world. Hopefully this doesn't piss you off, but the Bolt is another example of why to avoid LG products. In my real world life everything LG i've had so far has been junk or failed as well lol. So stove, tv, phones, etc... they all died early uncessesary deaths

Hard to say if dead batteries are very common on the Prius, or if you just commonly see it on forums because there are so many Prii.

The Bolt has environmental regulation (heating/cooling) for the battery, so it stays in a healthy temperature range at all times. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a significant amount of capacity remaining at 15 years. The oldest ones are about 6 years old now.

What I'd have done is delayed battery replacement for like 5 years, so that after putting wear and tear on it, I get a brand new one and get another decade of warranty and miles.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by hayden55

Average car on the road is 12 years old so it is slightly important.

True. It is also true that only 1.2% of used vehicles sold last year had more than 200K miles on the ODO. They exist - they just aren't a large percentage of the population.

Originally Posted by hayden55

Plenty of old toyotas are still worth good money at 20 years old because people know they are still good vehicles.

KBB says a 2003 Toyota Camry XLE with 250K miles is worth $4,000 in very good condition. Sounds reasonable. MSRP on a base XLE was $22,295 ($36,110 in today's dollars) so 11% of the original price. I would say that is pretty much fully depreciated. I really doubt anyone is going to pay to put a new engine or transmission in a 20 year old Camry with 250K miles. As I said, it is one major repair away from going to the scrap yard. Likewise a minor crash and the insurance company would scrap it.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by hayden55

Fix that poor gen 2 dude those things will literally do 500k miles lol.

Thanks for the encouragement! I'll think about it.

Originally Posted by JSH

Likewise a minor crash and the insurance company would scrap it.

That's the thing. KBB says the most I could get out of my Prius would be $3,915 (highest Private Party at fair condition). Even in prestine condition the highest price would be less than $6,000. I don't know what the insurance company would give me if my car were totaled, but I doubt it would pay for a new battery and catalytic converter and semi-used engine I could put into it right now.

But yes, I've procrastinated in finding out how much damage has actually been done to the cylinder walls.

... I just ordered a cylinder scope. I got a set of new plugs too for the Prius, as well as an OEM wheel bearing. Time to tackle this and find out if it's worth fixing or not ...