4x4 efficiency vs hybridizing?

[Big Dave]

By now you’ve got plenty of reasons why 4x4 gets worse MPG than 4x2. I owned a 4x4 for 17 years and can tell you that it never came close to the MPG of my 4x2.

Keep the 4x2.

The easiest way to go for hybridization is to shorten your drive shaft and put a double-ended DC motor into the drive line. It could reduce the torque requirement on the engine while accelerating – improving MPG – and it would harvest energy in regenerative braking mode.

Or you could go for the full series-hybrid. Remove the existing engine and simply bolt on an electric motor. Put a diesel genset in the bed and sling batteries where you can.

You can get rear axle gears down to 2.73:1 for S-10 axles.

What diesel are you planning to use? MB 617.952s are commonly set up to use WVO, but will be a real bear to convert into a North American vehicle. Connecting a DIN block to a SAE bellhousing is a challenging machinist problem. Cummins 4BT3.9 engines are easy to come by, run WVO just fine, and bolt right up to Chevy transmissions. They are absolutely bulletproof in this application, but have tow drawbacks: They are a bit tall and they are heavy. Durability comes at a price. The Cummins 4 banger weighs about 750 lb.

Hope your S-10 has a manual transmission. Automatics clutter up the entire engineering process.

[Clev]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

The easiest way to go for hybridization is to shorten your drive shaft and put a double-ended DC motor into the drive line. It could reduce the torque requirement on the engine while accelerating – improving MPG – and it would harvest energy in regenerative braking mode.

Do they make an overriding clutch strong enough to handle the power from the engine? That way, the DC motor could still operate independently of the engine when desired. Only problem is that finding a strong DC motor/controller that can handle regen is difficult. (Zapis can do it, but they tend to be unreliable.)

Originally Posted by Big Dave

Or you could go for the full series-hybrid. Remove the existing engine and simply bolt on an electric motor. Put a diesel genset in the bed and sling batteries where you can.

I like that idea. Do they make a boxer-type diesel that could mount under the bed? (Or maybe mount a toolbox in the bed, then cut out the bottom. Hide the engine in there.)

[bennelson]

Hey Big Dave,

My S10 has the 5-speed manual transmission.

The diesel I plan on putting in it is a Mercedes 616. Yeah, I know...it doesn't have a ton of horsepower - but I am more looking for fuel economy and renewable fuel use.

It's also a 2.4l displacement, just a tad more than my 2.2l 4-cylinder gasser. The engine is almost exactly the same size.

Netgain ( NetGain Motors, Inc. Home ) has some nice big motors that you can buy with a yoke on them to hook right up to a driveshaft. Unfortunately, they are not cheap, and you still need a controller, batteries, etc. which all add up in cost.

The "hybridization" that they offer is basically adding a motor right into the middle of the driveshaft. It's a neat idea, but I am not sure exactly how somebody would do a home version of it.

[Clev]

Originally Posted by bennelson

Hey Big Dave,

My S10 has the 5-speed manual transmission.

The diesel I plan on putting in it is a Mercedes 616. Yeah, I know...it doesn't have a ton of horsepower - but I am more looking for fuel economy and renewable fuel use.

It's also a 2.4l displacement, just a tad more than my 2.2l 4-cylinder gasser. The engine is almost exactly the same size.

Netgain ( NetGain Motors, Inc. Home ) has some nice big motors that you can buy with a yoke on them to hook right up to a driveshaft. Unfortunately, they are not cheap, and you still need a controller, batteries, etc. which all add up in cost.

The "hybridization" that they offer is basically adding a motor right into the middle of the driveshaft. It's a neat idea, but I am not sure exactly how somebody would do a home version of it.

Double-shafted motor with a yoke on each end, and two driveshafts.

For a single-ended motor (such as an AC motor), maybe use a differential with a locker turned sideways? Run one "axle shaft" end from the transmission, run the other "axle shaft" end to the standard rear diff, and run the AC motor off the yoke? That would have the benefit of allowing a motor with a single output shaft into the mix, and also provide a little gear reduction (AC motors rev high, so the gear reduction would probably help.)

[Frank Lee]

Maybe there's room to put a pulley on one end of the prop shaft or the other, and belt drive the sucker, largely leaving all the IC stuff alone.

[Big Dave]

Double-ended motors are not overly common but they can be had.

I'd put the electric behind the tailshaft of the tranny. When I want to run straight-electric, I kick her into neutral and shut down the engine.

If you want to use the Benz engine, get the Benz tranny and modify the frame to support. Match a DIN block to a SAE bellhousing makes tax law look simple.

The 616 engine should bolt right up to the four speed out of a 240D. Nice thing about this rig is that it will be running just fine when the rest of the truck rusts out around it and you could put the engine/tranny in another truck and probably outlast it. One caveat: Benz parts are uber-expensive. Pay more and get a good engine. Hit MercedesShop - Mercedes Benz Parts and Technical Information for advice. They are seriously cheap-Charley and know all the good parts sources.

Ever thought about a late-model (1986) 5.7 GM diesel? By then GM had cured the head gasket leakage problem. Its a bolt-up on your T-5.

[almightybmw]

Question: Why do you want a 4x4? If you've gone thus far in life without one, without even knowing the major differences between 4x2 and 4x4, Why are you thinking of getting one?

To me 4x4 offers ONE thing over any 2wd vehicle: Off road performance. Seriously. With the right set of tires and proper weight balancing, you don't need 4WD on any paved surface. How do you think Semi's do? Motorhomes towing cars in the winter?

If Big Dave's Ford can tow 10,000lb trailers smoothly down the highway, what does he need 4x4 for? Boat Ramps maybe? Possibly if the ramp is wet and slippery. Solution? ARB or Detroit electronic locker and air the tires down. Instant boost in traction. Still stuck? Wait for the ramp to dry, or put down some sand or dirt to help. Don't spin the tires, "feel" the traction limit and slowly work into it.

There is no reason for the average person needing 4WD. Driving in hazardous conditions, ie snow/ice storms? Well, if you get caught in one, you must live in a place that gets them, so you should have proper tires selected for the season. Don't skimp EVER on tires. They are your life. If I can drive my grand prix in the ditch with 6-8" of snow and come back out at 55mph (semi drifted into my lane, I had to avoid him) with snow tires (and a few years experience) I'm pretty sure the average driver can manage. Chains are an obvious solution, stop put them on, continue. Go ice traction.

Stick with your 4x2 S-10, and watch the weight limit of the diesel motor. the 4BT Big Dave suggested is even too heavy for my 4x4 Sonoma. the Independant Front doesn't like the added weight. Heck, even the QB3.3 (3 cylinder Cummins) is still heavy, although not much more than the stock 4.3. I'm considering getting the QB3.3. 300ft-lbs at 2100rpm? Heck yes, the 4.3 can't even do that in stock form. I read over on the 4btswap forums someone with the 3.3 managed 27mpg with a 10" lift, 35" tires, front solid axle swap, and minutes after installing it. Expecting tuned-in to net 35+mpg. I'd like that.



That 616 has at least 130 Nm and 65hp.
Your 2.2 has 120hp and 190 Nm.
let's hope the diesel is a bundle more effecient? As it certainly isn't more powerful. I'm thinking it would possibly be a toss up, maybe sided towards the 616. 130Nm at 1800rpm, I'll bet the 2.2 is less than that, but hard to say. Proper gearing is going to play a major role in whether the 616 is or can be more FE than the 2.2.

Long post, I'll stop now.

[bennelson]

My thoughts on 4x4 were mostly thinking about the possibility of simplifying hybridization, and improved performance on snow and ice.

I am in Wisconsin, and we do have pretty bad snow storms. I am fairly close to the city, so roads are typically not too bad, but it really depends on where you are.

My truck with rear-wheel drive is terrible on snow compared to my front-wheel Geo Metro or my wife's Pontiac Sunfire.

Since I am going to swap the diesel engine into my truck, I thought now would be the time to consider possibly going to a 4x4, if it made sense for other reasons as well.

[Clev]

Originally Posted by almightybmw

There is no reason for the average person needing 4WD. Driving in hazardous conditions, ie snow/ice storms? Well, if you get caught in one, you must live in a place that gets them, so you should have proper tires selected for the season. Don't skimp EVER on tires. They are your life. If I can drive my grand prix in the ditch with 6-8" of snow and come back out at 55mph (semi drifted into my lane, I had to avoid him) with snow tires (and a few years experience) I'm pretty sure the average driver can manage. Chains are an obvious solution, stop put them on, continue. Go ice traction.

I have 4WD and good tires. I have to put on chains maybe once every other year, and my truck easily goes where FWD cars with chains get thoroughly stuck. (Besides, when you have to put on chains every day for weeks at a time, you get tired of it really quickly.) There are places (even in Southern California) where 4WD makes the difference between stuck and mobile.

That said, this truck only gets about 4,000 miles per year, since the FE with the lift, 4WD and tires is not great.

[wwest40]

Clear up the confusion..

For someone from/in MT 4X4 means a locking/locked transfer case (center diff'l) typically using a dog/spline clutch, and the ability to shift into granny grunt, "low", range. Probably also "mudder" tires and jacked up so high you might need a "step" up.

4WD might be taken the same way.

What you probably mean to say is you want some form of AWD, probably R/AWD for most safety. R/AWD would mean the primary drive is at the rear and some engine torque routed to the front during moderate to heavy acceleration or on adverse roadbed conditions.

An ideal configuration would be a gas/diesel engine to drive the rear and electrics to drive/regen at the front.