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Old 11-30-2012, 08:52 AM   #11 (permalink)
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What kind of reservoir do you mean and how do you propose I go about attaching it to the air intake on my rebel 250? a vaccuum gauge would be neato!

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Old 11-30-2012, 07:23 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Yes. The opposite of what you are thinking. 90% load at the rpm of the first torque peak. 50% percent load is never more efficient. That's why we Pulse n Glide.
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The best streamlined electric bikes are still over 100 Wh/ mile at 100 kph. Some electric bicycles can get to 30 Wh/ mile but at a much lower speed of 30 kph.
90% load may be power efficient, but is it also fuel efficient? If i used a tiny engine and had it run all the time at 90% load to produce 15hp for bare minimum cruising at 65mph, will i get better mileage than a 250cc cruising at 65mph?

That almost basically describes the character of a serial hybrid. So maybe i'm better off going that route?

On the EV album website, there are several conversions of 200-250cc motorcycle frames that get 100wh/mi and can do 65mph+. Which isn't to say it gets 100wh/mi at 65mph! Probably worse, cause you lose tens of miles of range due to drag at 65mph. But if i get it from .5cd down to .16cd, I'd say i can improve mileage and range a lot!

Later, i'm gonna post about some estimates and benefits of a serial hybrid motorcycle. There is one unfinished serial motorcycle on the Ev album that i found!
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Last edited by sheepdog 44; 12-12-2013 at 10:23 PM..
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Old 11-30-2012, 07:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepdog 44 View Post
90% load may be power efficient, but is it also fuel efficient?
Power peak is at a higher rpm. 90-95% load at just under the first torque peak shows the best efficiency. This is usually still way too much power in many cars and all but the smallest engined motorcycles such as the CBR250R where it is even still necessary to pulse and glide. Serial hybrid seems like it would be a no brainer but as the Volt shows (38 mpg on long trips running on gas), the losses are significant.
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Old 12-12-2013, 11:40 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I've thought some more about this and pure electric with a detachable genset seems the way to go. For one this saves weight and complexity. My previous hybrid idea is just too prone to mechanical failure. Pure electric is simpler and more reliable. More aerodynamic too as i don't need to cool the engine. Since it will be full faired to a pure teardrop shape, i'll be using so little power, that the genset would be 4.5hp or less to sustain battery charge at freeway speeds, or 2hp to very nearly double the range. This would be in the range of the smallest genset you can get.

It would go without the genset 99% of the time with an electric range that exceeds most electric cars. It's sole purpose would be to extend range between charges on cross country trips. So i could cover the same distance in the same amount of time as a typical gasoline car driver.

My original purpose of making a hybrid motorcycle was to increase the charge to drive time ratio, and to increase the range between charging stations. But the infrastructure of level 2 charging has improved so much so that a range extender isn't necessary. And the rate of level2 charging a small 5kwh battery would be 20 minutes at 15kw? I was previously discouraged by reports from last year of 3.3kw and 6.6kw on board car chargers. Electric vehicles, especially electric motorcycles have come a long way in a short time.

The goal of the Moonshot motorcycle:
The most cost effective, fully enclosed streamliner possible.
Get the most range from a cheaper smaller battery,
with a faster highway cruising speed using a cheaper less powerful motor.
Driver + Dog, 1,000mpge.
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Old 12-13-2013, 06:04 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Better figure on at least 80 Watthours per mile at 60 mph. If you come up with the best streamlining ever. Which is 425 mpgE. A 16 kWhr battery kept to 80% of capacity for longevity would give 160 mile range. Fortunately for EV DIYer's right now, there are leftover AMP20 cells still available from cut apart Fiskar packs for $0.34 per Watthr. Your pack will cost you $5,500 now. New cells are more like $1.20 per Watthr. You would need a 150 Watt generator to keep up with highway travel. Charging from 220v at 30a would take 2 hours. A 6.6kW onboard charger will be almost as big and expensive as the battery. This starts to become a 900 pound beheamoth as Terry's ZERO is. Streamlined as his bike is, he still uses 100 Whr/ mile at 60 mph.
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Old 01-02-2014, 02:26 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Thanks Sendler. I've gotten many good insights from your posts which i'm starting to grasp now.

Terry's "beast" is the runaway weight scenario i'm trying to avoid. I'm hoping having a lighter weight will get me into a zone of peak efficiency that will give more range per kwh and compensate for 1/2 to 1/3 his battery pack. Everything is to be scaled down from the expensive range. A small pack can have 120 miles of range in the city, so i'm hoping aerodynamics will give me that range at highway speeds. Optimal aerodynamics is the only solution. There is no point to going 70% of a boat tail, chopping the end off and calling it good enough.

I probably won't reach my goal, but it doesn't hurt to aim high. I'm finding that compromise is the name of the game. I really want to make something that i'll prefer to ride to my car. Or else i'll just be burning gas most days with an electric vehicle in the garage. Frontal area is the biggest issue. The difference between high and extreme efficiency is a razor thin margin of tens of wh/mi. The difference is square inches of frontal area.

But doing that kills most of the practicality of the vehicle. If i want a practical vehicle, i'm hoping i can get within no less than 70% of my goal at highway speeds. Combined cycle, i should nearly reach it.

What is the point of hyper efficiency in an electric motorcycle? Useful single charge range.
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Last edited by sheepdog 44; 01-02-2014 at 03:04 AM..
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Old 01-02-2014, 02:31 AM   #17 (permalink)
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The search for a US Honda Innova clone.

I've been looking for a Honda Innova/ Wave clone in America for a while now with much frustration. I've decided Importing is a no go, even if i could bypass customs by declaring it for an electric vehicle conversion. It's hard finding a large wheeled scooter in America! These are my two picks for conversion.

My first choice among the available clones is the Kymco People 50-250. A big plus is the scooter is designed to be capable of freeway speeds, unlike the Innova and clones such as the Honda Super Cub. 17 inch wheels, the cutoff being 16 inch wheel minimum, which precludes 90% of "underbone" style scooters. It had to be an "underbone" frame for feet forward semi recumbant seating. Telescopic front forks, and what looks to be a decent suspension for the deletion of all gas components, and the added weight weight of about 120 lbs of batteries, 28-32 pound motor, assorted electronic components maybe 50 lbs, a complete fairing of unknown weight. Suspension could be beefed up if necessary.

Here is a diagram of the frame which can be bought for $300. Steel tube frame is a plus! The frame is the most important part, as every body panel must go.
OEM Parts




My second choice is the Honda cub. The progenitor of the Wave/ innova series. It's slightly smaller, nice big wheels, skinnier tires, with plentiful old models. Don't like the front suspension. However it's lightweight stamped frame is not confidence inspiring. I have issues with it's highway worthiness seeing that they usually only have a 50cc engine not capable of greater than 55mph.



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Last edited by sheepdog 44; 01-02-2014 at 03:31 AM..
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Old 01-02-2014, 06:04 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I think the wheel base of the scooters is too short to fit everything in. You would have to put foot pegs on the front axle to get any foot forward position. A chain drive motorcycle would be much easier to fit to a motor.
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Weight has almost no effect on cruise range and efficiency where air is the enemy. But it is hard to pick up when it tips over.
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A used Honda Rebel would be easy to find a good price on and offer a low seat height and foot forward position.
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You could ride it on gas for a summer to make sure you like it before sinking any money into the project.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:03 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
I think the wheel base of the scooters is too short to fit everything in. You would have to put foot pegs on the front axle to get any foot forward position. A chain drive motorcycle would be much easier to fit to a motor.

You could ride it on gas for a summer to make sure you like it before sinking any money into the project.
That's pretty much the plan. The height should be a helmets clearance above the top of the scooter. Which will make for a small frontal area and less side area for cross wind stability. I'm hoping the extra weight will stabilize the vehicle. 3-5kwh to start, 7 kwh max,. I could experiment by mounting battery weight high over the front forks, and some where the rider would normally sit. So the weight would be mounted high, even though the whole body wouldn't be tall. So that gives an idea to the scale of the vehicle. Just for perspective i'm about 5'5 120lbs.

Wheel bases are: Honda Cub 47 in, Kymco People 53 in, Ninja 250 55.1 in. It's a little shorter than the Ninja which people have built fish tails to. I could look into adding a foot or two for cross wind stability. It's starting to be a single occupant vehicle now.
Here are the specs:
KYMCO People 150 Specifications - KYMCO USA

I know the whole thing is just a little bit crazy, but hopefully not impossible. I'll buy some scooter or motorcycle in the spring. This should get me out of the dreaded planning stage and into the doing and building stage.

Edit: You were right, it's belt drive! What a pain. I hope it's not too difficult to add a sprocket to the rear wheel.
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Last edited by sheepdog 44; 01-02-2014 at 10:36 AM..
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:12 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Honda CBR250R FI Single - '11 Honda CBR250R
90 day: 105.14 mpg (US)

2001 Honda Insight stick - '01 Honda Insight manual
90 day: 60.68 mpg (US)

2009 Honda Fit auto - '09 Honda Fit Auto
90 day: 38.51 mpg (US)

PCX153 - '13 Honda PCX150
90 day: 104.48 mpg (US)

2015 Yamaha R3 - '15 Yamaha R3
90 day: 80.94 mpg (US)

Ninja650 - '19 Kawasaki Ninja 650
90 day: 72.57 mpg (US)
Thanks: 326
Thanked 1,312 Times in 966 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheepdog 44 View Post
You were right, it's belt drive! What a pain. I hope it's not too difficult to add a sprocket to the rear wheel.
The belt drive housing is the swingarm and is also part of the engine case. There is also a final drive reduction in the back as well. A chain drive motorcycle would be a much better place to start

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