The climate change consensus extends beyond climate scientists

[sendler]

The only practical vehicle capable of running real time on solar panels will have to average less than 500W due to panel area like a 250W average ebike pulling a trailer at 19 mph.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_SGoka_LzI

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[All Darc]

For real time, yes...
But if you drive 10 or even 20 minutes, and let the solar car (one lightweight aerodynamic with regenerative braking) on sun for 3 or 4 hours, it's another story.
I know you will say that it's better to just put the solar panels on home and recharge the car, but this way you would need heavier batteries.

Anyway if ethanol fuel cells get good, highy efficient, and afordable, it will solve many things. It would be used only for long distance voyages, while short distances it could be solar.
Ethanol fuel cell car, in countries where electricity it's made with fossil fuel, could be better than ellectric cars charged on the electrical network. One more point to try use solar.

The girl on the video would get better if had use a recumbent bike velomobile with aerodynamic shell and and a relative large roof (upper shell) with solar panels.

Originally Posted by sendler

The only practical vehicle capable of running real time on solar panels will have to average less than 500W due to panel area like a 250W average ebike pulling a trailer at 19 mph.

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[NeilBlanchard]

Originally Posted by sendler

Sorry. Not trying to be negative. Just pragmatic. That solution map you keep posting is typical greenwashing fluff. This percent. That percent. Blah,blah. There is no substance on that sight. No cost. No land use. No resource depletion. Our energy consumption is immense. Electricity is only 1/4 of it. .46 TW continuous electrical average for the USA. Mix it up any way you want. 2000 more 600MW solar farms. 1/2 and 1/2 wind. Whatever. Trying to store 10 TWh just to make it through the night without a blackout. Store it anyway you want. The scale is immense. That is 10,000 BigF'nBatteries. Just for the USA. Just for electrical. Just for 1 day. Use hydro if you can find it. Or gravity rail. Whatever. The scale is still immense. Please wake up people.
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For some reason, engineers are the people that seem to grasp the scale of our dilemma in replacing fossil fuels.
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MacKay wrote a very objective book on the feasability of solar and wind plus storage ever replacing our total energy.
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Please read if you really want to know about the abilities of new energy.
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http://www.withouthotair.com/cft.pdf
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Tom Murphy do the math is also important to read.
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https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/post-index/
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And...
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The objection to the constant quoting of nameplate capacity is because it is also an intentional greenwashing by the trade magazines to promote new energy. When in fact the newest "600MW" solar farm that costs blah blah per kW on feed in tarrif supported bid, really only makes 30% of that. And rooftop in NY does 1/2 of that.
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Wind is the same. The best onshore wind farms do 25%.

The costs are there - look harder.

We cannot continue with fossil fuels. They are finite, and the costs are effectively infinite.

Renewable energy is growing faster than anything else. It is cheaper than anything else. It gets cheaper and cleaner over time.

The sooner / quicker we switch to renewable energy, the more we save - money and the earth.

[All Darc]

I will put more wood in this fire (debate).

Energy demand have a lot of pure greed together. Industry takes a lot of energy, maybe more than homes and cars together as someone said in this topic. But industry lives from a lot of silly consumism. Things made for left just 1 or two years, cause people buy a lot without need. Economic system it's addicted to this consumism, and lifes & jobs, are connected to it. It's a hell complex thing...

I don't want to hurt feeling of american people, but you have a culture quite sarcastic to environment. Fast food to kill themselves and generated a lot of plastic, foam, paper for each lunch.
Eat something that is not a crap garbage, today on USA it's for wealth people. The majoroty eat poison and produce a lot of trash to polute the environment . People who change Iphone each year or each 6 months, and buy and dispose a lot of foolish things each years.

This is a culture who took a lot of energy and polutes a lot, a culture that need to change. Much of the hurry and despair it's due science have no alternative to go green and at same time keep this sick culture standarts.

Like I said, I have no intention to offend american people. I did a lot of hard critics about my own country in this forum.

[oil pan 4]

A typical electric car does some where around 4 or 5 miles per kwh. That's why they have huge batteries and take forever to charge off a 120v 15 amp circuit.

I start with an obsolete phone costing less than $200 and usually keep it till it breaks. I'm not paying 700+ for a phone every year. That's just stupid.

[All Darc]

4 miles/KW...That's horrible... That's why I said the concept need to change, start from scratch, target low weight, good aerodynamics...
But once they are used to expansive, large, heavy vehicles, able to create high profit, they will not desire to change.

You are wise on phone, but many people are not. In my country there are tons of stupid people who are poor but get expansive phones to try to make a image of a better social class. Many do the same thing for cars.

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

A typical electric car does some where around 4 or 5 miles per kwh. That's why they have huge batteries and take forever to charge off a 120v 15 amp circuit.

I start with an obsolete phone costing less than $200 and usually keep it till it breaks. I'm not paying 700+ for a phone every year. That's just stupid.

[sendler]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

The costs are there - look harder.

Where? I see only references to things like "health care cost savings". It says nothing about the actual number for each type of capacity added. And their land use estimate is off by at least a factor of 10 if they think NY will get 35% from solar PV. The site mentions nothing of storage.
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NY averages 20 GW winter and 33 summer. Onshore wind does about 2W/ meter^2. Solar in the best locations does about 15W/ m. NY would be 6.
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https://www.electricitymap.org/?page...ntryCode=US-NY
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Again. The USA uses .47TW. 11.3TWh/ day. It would take 2,100, 600MW SolarStar equivalent farms in the SouthWest. Or 1000 in the SW and 2,000 more in the NE. Or mix of solar plus wind. whatever. Immense. If we could get wind and solar down to $1/W nameplate installed, we are looking at $2 Trillion. Initial. With no ongoing operational and maintenance costs. And wind only lasts 15 years.
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You are familiar with the Tesla BigF'nBattery (his name, not mine) in South Australia. It takes 10,000 BFB's to store just 24 hours of electricity for the USA. Or pumped hydro (there is not that much left that has not already been developed), whatever. Immense. At the wishfull estimate of $200/ MWh that is $2.25 Trillion. And batteries last how long?
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And electricity is only 1/4 of total consumed energy. Much of which cannot easily be converted to electric.
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Leaving ANY liquid fossil fuel in the ground by 100 years from now is not a question of choice the way the solar trade mags make it seem. It would take a world panic level action to even come close to pulling this off without a major population crash when our fossil fueled, growth based economy, finally runs out of oil. And sends us back to muscle and firewood, having done way too little in finding a new way.

[All Darc]

There is a nearly unlimited energy source, but quite complex, and have some danger and can be target of terrorism.

Breeder reactors. It can convert not ideal fuel into nuclear fuel. I don't remamber details but it could generate rich uraniun or plutoniun (not sure if one of this or both) from poor uranioun. It would recicle radioative waste into new nuclear fuel. But one critic was that could easily convert fuel for nuclear weapons.
The good side is that it would solve the problem or nuclear waste storage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_reactor

But after the dumbsh...t event in Fukushima, where a disaster happened for lack of water-cooling after a tsunami... for lack of a really good emergency system to generate electricity to pump water to cool the reactor... Who can ensure a system proof of fail for a much more complex reactor ???

[sendler]

GenIV nuclear needs to have molten salt cooling for the reactor and cooling pools so that it is 100% walk away safe. And we need to be pragmatic enough (and be able to do math) to choose it. It is the only way to soften the coming crash. Buy us enough time (200 years) to get the population back down to levels that can be sustained without immense fossil energy. Build a completely new social system.

[Xist]

As I recall, every nuclear failure was using already obsolete technology, and I have previously shared data showing that nuclear power has had fewer fatalities than any other power source.

Except dilithium crystals. Those have had zero casualties and I do not expect that to change any time soon.