The climate change consensus extends beyond climate scientists

[sendler]

Originally Posted by aerohead

It (Solar roof and an electric car) is something climate scientists advocate.You still have your mobility while essentially carbon-free.
Use the liquid hydrocarbons for something more durable than exhaust gases, water vapor and waste heat.

Most people in the world do not have their own roof or availble land that faces the equator. And the weather in my area of North East USA will provide near zero output for many days during the winter. And we don't have enough resources to produce batteries for 1.2 billion electric cars to replace our growing fleet.
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So the original poster's premise to offer an opposing view to the statement "all we have to do to solve our problems is to put solar panals on our roofs and buy an electic car", is correct. Personal transportaion is a very small portion of our total energy consumption as a civilization. If everyone does a little, we will gain... a little.
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Our whole society model needs to change. People will ride bikes to get around. And do work for survival instead of holding a "job".

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Xist

How many of you say that we need to stop using gas now and only drive electric vehicles?

It isn't feasible now. The only people that would say we need to do as you say either are economically ignorant, or don't care if they live in mud huts and eat insects for nutrition.

Originally Posted by aerohead

Perhaps we could actually have public education since we already pay for it. And we wouldn't be debating climate change or anything else on an obscure forum on an equally obscure website.

The problem isn't one of education. Even if all of the US were convinced that GW was a dire problem and committed to drastic reductions in CO2 production, the rest of the world would continue on consuming at a rapid pace considering that fossil fuels would be even cheaper if the US wasn't consuming them (more supply). Our economy would be left in the dust.

The second problem with the call to education is that even if people know their actions contribute negatively to the environment, they don't really care since they account for hardly any of the overall impact. It's like sharing the bill at a restaurant; if the check is being split evenly, then we'll have the steak dinner since it won't increase the bill that much compared to everyone 's combined cost. Now consider the check is being split several billion ways...

Our public education fails in way more than just teaching energy consumption and externalities; the vast majority of people lack an elementary understanding of economics, yet hold strong opinions of what should be done about things that massively affect the economy on topics such as subsidized healthcare and other entitlements.

Originally Posted by aerohead

What was reported,was that a Finnish company was providing solar-derived electrical power,at 2.44-cents/kW-h.India's filthiest,cheapest coal-fired power plants could not provide power any cheaper than 3.1-cents/kW-h.

If somehow solar were economically advantageous, some country would implement it and soar ahead economically.

The only reason solar is economically advantageous for some homeowners in the US is because a large part of the cost is distributed across the taxpayers.

[freebeard]

It isn't feasible now. The only people that would say we need to do as you say either are economically ignorant, or don't care if they live in mud huts and eat insects for nutrition.

I could dig living in a warm, tidy house made of compressed earth blocks, but I draw the line at eating insects. Especially ants, they reek of formic acid. Bacteria poop, on the other hand — breakfast every day.

The second problem with the call to education is that even if people know their actions contribute negatively to the environment, they don't really care since they account for hardly any of the overall impact. It's like sharing the bill at a restaurant....

[tragedy of the commons]

Our public education fails in way more than just teaching energy consumption and externalities; the vast majority of people lack an elementary understanding of economics, yet hold strong opinions of what should be done about things that massively affect the economy on topics such as subsidized healthcare and other entitlements.

It's worse than ignorance. Frankfurt-school Marxism, AKA critical theory, actively destroys people's ability to reason and speak.

[NeilBlanchard]

Originally Posted by aerohead

Yes, moving away from combustion as fast as we can is what the climatologists are recommending.
There was hope for carbon sequestration,but the best so far is an Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle (IGCC) plant with carbon capture,at a cost of $30/ton,but at $79/M-W it cannot compete price-wise in an open market.

We can cheaply sequester carbon - using plants. They do the hardest part - efficiently splitting carbon away from the oxygen, and we just need to set up things to keep the carbon in the soil. One massive mechanism for this is grasslands, with roaming herds of herbivores.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgmssrVInP0

Carbon farming is using permicultures and methods of sinking carbon into the soil.

Biochar is another way to get both energy and sinking carbon into the soil.

High carbon soil has YUUUGE benefits: superior water capacity, and increased biological diversity, and much high nutrient levels - which lead to more robust soil health, reduced erosion - and much more nutritious and better tasting food.

[Xist]

I read that this is the equivalent of somehow taking 115,000 cars off the road, but will add an average of $9,500 to the purchase price of a car, which would work out to an additional $40 a month, but reduce the electrical bill by $80. The first few articles that I saw descended into a political wasteland. News Release - Energy Commission Adopts Standards Requiring Solar Systems for New Homes, First in Nation

[sendler]

It should be code for all new homes and buildings with a pitched roof to have the major roof section built to the optimal orientation for solar PV.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Xist

I read that this is the equivalent of somehow taking 115,000 cars off the road, but will add an average of $9,500 to the purchase price of a car, which would work out to an additional $40 a month, but reduce the electrical bill by $80. The first few articles that I saw descended into a political wasteland. News Release - Energy Commission Adopts Standards Requiring Solar Systems for New Homes, First in Nation

The law applies to new apartments and condos, and there are exceptions for structures that are shaded or otherwise a poor location for solar. That said:

The financial incentive to go solar in CA is why mandating it is thoughtless. CA already has among the highest utility rates and the most sun, so the incentive to install solar is already there. Government has no business dictating the precise method of alleviating the symptoms of some problem (picking technology winners and losers). Perhaps wind power makes more sense in some location than solar. Why mandate they install solar anyhow? The role of government isn't to drive specific technologies or pick arbitrary goals, but instead to identify real problems, and set reasonable limits that will make the problem acceptable. Mandating solar to solve the problem of high electricity consumption is like mandating sales of the Nissan Versa Note to solve the problem of people driving too fast.

In other words, only bad things can happen when the government assumes the role of the free market, just as only bad things can happen if business is allowed to assume the role of the government and set its own rules and limits.

Regarding impact to the utility, CA is a great location for solar since peak electrical consumption is somewhat related to peak solar energy. It's good up until a certain percentage of electricity generation, and then as you point out, it becomes a problem as the infrastructure isn't designed to handle enormous amounts of power being fed back onto the grid. Parts of Hawaii are already experiencing this problem as solar installs have approached the limits of the grid to handle it. There are people on wait lists for approval to install grid-tied solar due to this problem.

Grid electricity is a very complex problem because electrical output must exactly match demand at all times. That means if a cloud shades a bunch of solar and the output drops off quickly, the grid generators must instantly ramp up production to compensate. If the clouds quickly disappear and solar production spikes back up, generators must quickly respond. Any excess energy produced has to be shunted to ground (wasted), and any lack of electricity causes brownouts.

[oil pan 4]

Putting PV on buildings up north could end up being a waste of money, between having lots of trees around your home like my parents in maine and week or more with no sun at a time or being covered with snow for a month or 2 at a time.

Also if you finance the solar as part of the house it is going to cost more like $20k by the time it's paid off.

A 5kw system system, which is about all you're going to get installed for $10k could reduce your bill by $80 a month if your electric power is stupid expensive.
Here in new Mexico a 5kw system would reduce my bill by around $50 to $60.
But I'm expecting $10k to get me up near the 9kw range. No loans for this guy, cash and carry, install it my self, no hidden loan costs, no green washing.

But for me 9.6kw is the max I can install with my existing service.

[sendler]

Solar rooftop grid tie pricing in the USA is about $1.60/ nameplate Watt just for the parts. Installed pricing is $3.30/ W for roof top and $2.10 for grid scale. It is a waste of money in the North East (and Germany and Russia). But will eventually become much better than nothing in 50 years. But it is a good idea to mandate that new structures, most of which will last much more then 50 years, have their major roof section oriented to the sun in readiness for the day when solar PV should be installed.

[freebeard]

Mandating PV will kill the solar hot water business.