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Old 10-19-2017, 12:16 PM   #401 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Yeah since all renewable power is completely dependent upon fossil fuels for every aspect from design to full scale production.
Huh?

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Old 10-19-2017, 12:20 PM   #402 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
I'm surprised no one has brought up that it's gotten so warm on mars water vapor clouds seen for the first time ever.
Kind of throws a wrench into the whole man made rapid global warming hoaxpothysis and that the sun is responsible for most of it.
You're not correct - whatever is happening on Mars proves nothing about what is happening here on earth.

Anthropogenic climate change is fact. Your attempts to deny this are meaningless.
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Old 10-19-2017, 01:43 PM   #403 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard View Post
Huh?
Do you not understand that for example wind turbines use tons of steel and concrete. Concrete is very fossil fuel dependent. Iron smelting uses coal. The wind turbine blades use hundreds of gallons of epoxy or fiberglass resin which is a product of the petroleum chemical industry. Fiber glass also uses fossil fuels to be made. A typical hydraulic actuated 2Mw wind turbine uses up to 70 gallons of oil and hydraulic fluid. Then all these parts require the trucking industry to move them around.
Solar panels are just as bad if not worse.
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Old 10-19-2017, 01:49 PM   #404 (permalink)
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Quote:
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You're not correct - whatever is happening on Mars proves nothing about what is happening here on earth.

Anthropogenic climate change is fact. Your attempts to deny this are meaningless.
So Mars getting getting warmer has nothing to do with the earth getting warmer too?
If that's not denial I don't know what it.
I don't deny anything. Climate change happens, CO2 warms the planet. Man is not the primary driving force.
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Old 10-19-2017, 04:57 PM   #405 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard
Anthropogenic climate change is fact. Your attempts to deny this are meaningless.
Beware. Belief in meaninglessness leads to Existentialism and Frankfurt School Marxism.

I would only accept an argument in favor of AGW, as it's called, that is couched in terms of the Electric Universe. Which theory easily accommodates intra-planetary climate forcing.
 
Old 10-19-2017, 05:10 PM   #406 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Do you not understand that for example wind turbines use tons of steel and concrete. Concrete is very fossil fuel dependent. Iron smelting uses coal. The wind turbine blades use hundreds of gallons of epoxy or fiberglass resin which is a product of the petroleum chemical industry. Fiber glass also uses fossil fuels to be made. A typical hydraulic actuated 2Mw wind turbine uses up to 70 gallons of oil and hydraulic fluid. Then all these parts require the trucking industry to move them around.
Solar panels are just as bad if not worse.
And batteries take tons of liquid fuels to harvest and transport the raw materials. Dams take tons of liquid fuels and concrete to construct. Reactors take tons of liquid fuels and concrete to construct.
.
This is why I am trying to get across a sense of urgency to people that think we will so easily replace fossil fuels. And to the other half of people that don't see any problem at all. "Just put up some solar panels". "We have it made". It takes tons of energy to do all of this. It's getting late.
 
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Old 10-19-2017, 05:36 PM   #407 (permalink)
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And batteries take tons of liquid fuels to harvest and transport the raw materials. Dams take tons of liquid fuels and concrete to construct. Reactors take tons of liquid fuels and concrete to construct.
.
This is why I am trying to get across a sense of urgency to people that think we will so easily replace fossil fuels. And to the other half of people that don't see any problem at all. "Just put up some solar panels". "We have it made". It takes tons of energy to do all of this. It's getting late.
Agreed. I don't think anyone has come up with a way to mass replicate modern steel with out using coal. Or produce and transport any where near the amount of concrete produced today with out fossil fuels, especially since some of the best concrete produced uses coal fly ash.

You mentioned the mines, those take tons of explosives all made by the petro chemical industry.

I am working on replacement for some fossil fuels and it's a lot of work. Going from electric, saying no to natural gas and going to fire wood, wood pellet and some propane.
Let's just say it involves getting proficient with a 20lb sledge hammer.
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Old 10-19-2017, 05:42 PM   #408 (permalink)
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Old 10-19-2017, 05:52 PM   #409 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
I am working on replacement for some fossil fuels and it's a lot of work. Going from electric, saying no to natural gas and going to fire wood, wood pellet and some propane.
Let's just say it involves getting proficient with a 20lb sledge hammer.
Which is obviously not scalable to replace world liquid fuel consumption. We are headed for a really serious bottleneck.
 
Old 10-19-2017, 05:53 PM   #410 (permalink)
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"Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled." -Michael Crichton

I often find the truth of any matter to be close to the center of any two extreme positions. Concerning global warming, it seems that reducing CO2 will merely slow the inevitable temperature rise. Given this, we should focus our efforts on preparing for warmer environments rather than expecting human nature to accept austerity, and science to invent ways to spend our way into global temperature stasis.

Moving away from fossil fuel energy will occur primarily due to collective economic reasons, not due to individual anxiety concerning the environment or fuel supplies.

My attitude with all this is to worry about the things I am likely able to affect, and accept the reality of things I'm unlikely able to affect.

As an aside, all things undergo change and are ultimately unsustainable. No government, species, climate, or person can go on unchanged indefinitely. Trump shall pass, global warming fear will pass, and eventually our respective governments will pass.

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