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Old 02-06-2019, 01:52 PM   #4861 (permalink)
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Old 02-06-2019, 02:24 PM   #4862 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Mining anything like Lithium from sea water will have such a high negative ER/EI so as to be completely the realm of SciFi dreams. Even if we had the raw materials, have you considered the scale of 130 TWh of batteries? Just to store 16 hours of half of the energy we are now using. Please wake up people.
130 TWh. That is just under 0.1% of the yearly global energy use (all types, not just electricity).
That is quite some backup for your grid...

Even so, lithium is light as the 3rd element of the periodic table.
It takes just 0.1 kg of lithium to build 1 kWh of battery power.
13 million ton to build 130 TWh.
That's still way less than the brine reserves in South America alone.
So we could just build that storage capacity.
Or 2 billion Teslas.

Mind you - I don't advocate 100% renewable, definitely not short time. You can't climb a mountain in one giant leap.
I advocate moving toward it. Every step helps. We may or may not reach the top, but hopefully we get to where the air is fresh.

I read about seawater extraction... and not in a sci-fi magazine:
Quote:
Originally Posted by that lithium link
A compact EV battery (Nissan Leaf) uses about 4kg (9 lb) of lithium ...
About 70 percent of the world’s lithium comes from brine (salt lakes); the remainder is derived from hard rock. Research institutions are developing technology to draw lithium from seawater.
Most of the known lithium supply is in Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, Australia and China. The quality is acceptable and reports reveal that Brazil has lithium mineral reserves that are not only of higher quality but also have lower extraction costs.

The supply is ample and concerns of global shortages are speculative. To attain one ton of lithium, Latin America uses 750 tons of brine, the base material for lithium, and adds 24 months of preparation.

Lithium is commonly sourced from brine, a water and energy intensive process. According to www.foeeurope.org, 0.05-1 mg of lithium requires 1 liter of brine/mineral water. Areas rich in lithium are often arid, increasing the cost of mining. Dry and salty conditions can also take a toll on human health. Seawater extraction is a more expensive way to mine lithium.
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Last edited by RedDevil; 02-06-2019 at 04:09 PM.. Reason: First version had a tiny 1,000 scale miscalculation. Fact checked and found it :O
 
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Old 02-06-2019, 02:42 PM   #4863 (permalink)
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The dead are owed nothing, because the future belongs to the living.
Yeah,'n ---k their surviving family members as well, right?
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Old 02-06-2019, 02:47 PM   #4864 (permalink)
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Yeah,'n ---k their surviving family members as well, right?
I'm a live and let live sort of guy. No need to F anyone.

Life's not fair. I don't owe anyone living today anything. Similarly, they don't owe me anything.

People die all the time, and it's inevitable. What about workers who have died constructing McDonalds play structures? Do we ban play structures because people have died? I consider it acceptable risk.
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Old 02-06-2019, 02:51 PM   #4865 (permalink)
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agree

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This is a nice magic wand you have to wave away anything you do not agree with.
Why would I agree with microcephalics?
If they're trying to pass this crap off as some absolute,then they deserve all the expletives that would get me thrown off EcoModder.
Those freaks ought to take a little out of their paycheck to buy themselves a window to look out of.
There's a whole world awaiting them.
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Old 02-06-2019, 02:57 PM   #4866 (permalink)
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I'm a live and let live sort of guy. No need to F anyone.

Life's not fair. I don't owe anyone living today anything. Similarly, they don't owe me anything.

People die all the time, and it's inevitable. What about workers who have died constructing McDonalds play structures? Do we ban play structures because people have died? I consider it acceptable risk.
perhaps you won't be forgiven for your trespasses.ISIS bait
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Old 02-06-2019, 03:05 PM   #4867 (permalink)
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Quote:
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130 TWh. That's the combined capacity of give or take 2 million Tesla cars.
Hook them up to the net most of the time, there's your emergency power supply.

Of course there aren't 2 million Tesla's around yet. Only half a million. There are more than 2 million electric cars in the world though, and the number is rising fast.
Check your math. I think you are off. I get 1.3 billion, 100kWh large electric car packs to make 130 TWh. Which gives us a mere 16 hours of storage for half of the amount of energy we are now using which is about 400 TWh per day currently.
.
The remaining oil will generally be out of reach for most commercial and civilian uses within 30 years. Natural gas will become remote in 70 years.
.
But I do believe we should work within the current system momentum to build out as much wind and solar and resilient housing and rail as possible, utilizing a wold wide Green New Deal, in the meantime to forge a clean energy bridge to extend what we have left to buy another century in order to shift human existence back toward a low tech permaculture existence with the minimum amount of pain as is possible. Even if most of the wind turbines will eventually age out and rot in the fields when we run out of resources and liquid fuel to take care of them.
 
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Old 02-06-2019, 03:21 PM   #4868 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Check your math. I think you are off. I get 1.3 billion, 100kWh large electric car packs to make 130 TWh. Which gives us a mere 16 hours of storage for half of the amount of energy we are now using which is about 400 TWh per day currently.
.
The remaining oil will generally be out of reach for most commercial and civilian uses within 30 years. Natural gas will become remote in 70 years.
.
But I do believe we should work within the current system momentum to build out as much wind and solar and resilient housing and rail as possible, utilizing a wold wide Green New Deal, in the meantime to forge a clean energy bridge to extend what we have left to buy another century in order to shift human existence back toward a low tech permaculture existence with the minimum amount of pain as is possible. Even if most of the wind turbines will eventually age out and rot in the fields when we run out of resources and liquid fuel to take care of them.
You're right, but I already corrected it. I indeed missed a 1000 in TWh.
The US yearly electricity production is about 4,034 billion kilowatthours (2017 data) - 4,034 million MWh, 4,034,000 GWh, 4,034 TWh.
130 TWh therefore should power the grid for about 10 days.
Global electricity production is about 5 times as much. Still 2 days.
I did not expect a battery that big would be needed...

Indeed. We could alter our lifestyle to use way less energy and still have the necessary comforts while maximizing renewable supply possibilities. Every step in that direction helps.
We may succeed in the end or we may have to drop some of the luxuries, but the earlier we start, the less the pain will be.
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Last edited by RedDevil; 02-06-2019 at 03:48 PM.. Reason: lithium supply link moved to previous post
 
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Old 02-06-2019, 03:53 PM   #4869 (permalink)
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Still, the requirement isn't that grid connected EVs provide 100% of the electricity demand, just whatever deficit in renewable production there is. Even if EVs are insufficient to 100% cover deficit demand, it at least holds the potential to massively smooth out the grid and avoid costly peaking generation a significant portion of the time.

I don't know the cost to implement vs the payback rate, so no idea how feasible this would be. The most expensive part is the battery though, and most of the electronics already exist in the cars.

Let's say at some point there are 100,000,000 EVs connected to the US grid (250 million cars are on the road now), and they are willing to share 30 kWh of capacity. That's 3 tWh of storage.
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Old 02-06-2019, 04:12 PM   #4870 (permalink)
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V2G is a no brainer if we really think we will have hundreds of millions of 2 ton electric cars on the road as we do ice vehicles now. Just don't think that that will be even close to enough battery storage to keep up with our current level of energy use after fossil fuels. There will be a big change in lifestyle coming for the middle classes in developed nations.
.
We would be much wiser to look one further step ahead than that and realize that owning a personal car for billions of people is completely unsustainable even on the 30 year time frame of what it takes to change everything so OECD civilization can bend back down to something functional without them.

 
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