Do Hybrids Really Make Sense?

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

I don't have a BSFC graph for the 500, but when I say my engine is either at BSFC or off, I refer to my daily driver Renault.

Doesn't matter ... whatever car it is ... Do you have a BSFC for it?
Ideally combined with the gear ratios data , from shaft to wheel.

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

Actually as I was driving to work today, I realised I can still vary engine load 'artificially' by choosing when to run the A/C. Many new cars have inteligent algorithms controlling the alternator and A/C that work this way automatically.

Both of which can also be done in hybrids .. but hybrids have the potential to do so better than the ICE-only can... this just another +1 for the hybrid.

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

The Fiat does 0-62 in 11 seconds, the stock 1st Gen did it in 11.5, the Fiat is 100kg heavier stock and would be 150kg heavier than the proposed finished car. Hard to see it not being faster as the turbo produces 80% of peak torque from 1500rpm.

quantified RPM vs Torque Curve makes it less guess work , and more quantifiable.

I can think of several possibilities ... different gear ratios ... Car and driver got 0-60 in 10.6 sec in the 2000 Insight not 11.5 ... etc ... etc ... but I would rather have data to make an informed decision than just guessing... or assuming either direction.

Do you have the torque vs rpm curve ?

[KFM]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

So after 169 posts the conclusion is hybrids are not cost effective in Australia. They might be cost effective in the US, depending on how you calculate cost effectiveness and that you buy one used so the rich idiot who bought it new is making it cost effective for you.

regards
mech

This exactly. People love trading in/selling their expensive cars for pennies on the dollar when they get tired of them.

[oldtamiyaphile]

Originally Posted by IamIan

Doesn't matter ... whatever car it is ... Do you have a BSFC for it?

I suspect you know that finding BSFC maps for most cars is impossible. While absolute lowest g/kwh is usually only a very small area of the map, it's usually accompanied by a very large area either side where economy only drops by a few g/kwh. It's fairly easy to find your BSFC sweet spot with an MPGuino or equivalent. You will actually see a dip at BSFC, fuel use will be higher and lower in the torque/rpm/load map. Having a supplied graph is nice, but it's not that hard to do for yourself.

[oldtamiyaphile]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

So after 169 posts the conclusion is hybrids are not cost effective in Australia.

Not quite.

Current model hybrids are no longer being sold at a loss in the US, which means they sell for about the same price in the US as they do here (Camry hybrid only adds $5k for example). People who bought 1st Gen Insights in the US got a large down payment from Honda.

The fanboys will never admit that you could simply put a a small turbo diesel (heck even a petrol) in the same body and get better figures than the hybrid did, and without having to sell it at a massive loss.

There are plenty of current model hybrids you can make a (still tenuous) case for where ever you live.

[elhigh]

Originally Posted by Old Mechanic

So after 169 posts the conclusion is hybrids are not cost effective in Australia. They might be cost effective in the US, depending on how you calculate cost effectiveness and that you buy one used so the rich idiot who bought it new is making it cost effective for you.

regards
mech

I think the conclusion is really up to the original poster, EVMetro, who stopped engaging this clown factory about 100 posts ago. Now it's just down to a pie fight between OldTamiyaPhile and everyone else.

My take, and I'm done with this topic: whether it makes sense is not for anyone to decide but the person buying the car. Everything else is arguing for the sake of argument, which is dumb. There are enough things to fight about without inventing more.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

I'm going to stick with the conclusion that Honda and Toyota didn't take a 50% loss for cars sold here, like they seem to have in the US, our price was the 'real' one.

The real price is what you pay out the door. I can't find what actual import duties were in 2000, but various sources (like this: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/14/au...ow-motion.html ) have them declining from a high of an effective 150% in the 1980s.

As mentioned a few pages ago, you could have bought a Suzuki Swift for $13k, or a Gen 1 for 49K, that gave the Insight a roughly 4 million kilometre break even point.

And as I showed a few pages back, using actual numbers (with references), the break-even point for a 2000 Insight vs the same year Civic in the US is well under the 190K miles mine has actually been driven.

[RedDevil]

In the vast majority of posts on this thread, 'sense' is implicitly replaced by 'fuel cost per mile'.

While the latter is important, especially so on this forum , I must stress again that there are many other reasons to buy a hybrid:
- smoothness of operation
- ease of operation
- low emissions (even per same amount of fuel used)
- low wear on brakes etc.
- PHEV conversion possible
- proven reliability

After all, the (supposed or real) negative aspects of hybrids, like initial cost, complexity, a bore to drive have already gotten a lot of attention in this thread.

To make sense we need to look at the whole picture, right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0AOO50Xlho

[oldtamiyaphile]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

In the vast majority of posts on this thread, 'sense' is implicitly replaced by 'fuel cost per mile'.

To make sense we need to look at the whole picture, right?]

For a car to make sense it needs to be economically viable. History is littered with interesting cars and concepts that were too expensive to make it in the market ( you can probably think of at least a dozen ECO cars alone).

Hybrids are only just starting to be viable. In future, as ICE regs drive ever greater engine complexity, Hybrids may well become a way to keep engines simple and reliable.

There's a problem with the way Hybrids are tested for emissions though. Presently, cars are tested over a ~20km total to arrive at their emissions ratings. The mfg's fully charge the battery (when I drove the Prius C it started with 50% charge and charged as I drove it - very little came from wasted regen energy) and every hybrid even from Ferrari and big SUV's, gets 90g or less CO2 per 100km. Once that charge is depleted, those CO2 outputs skyrocket.

Certainly for many people in Europe, where cars are taxed into the thousands of dollars per year you can see how someone with a ICE Golf sized car pays thousands a year in tax, while mr Hybrid SUV in some cases pays nothing, even though in all likelihood he's putting out more CO2.

ROI is an easy way to compare approximate energy use over the car's lifetime. That's why I feel you need to use the true cost of a vehicle not 'what you pay', that's why 1st Gens don't make sense.

If we want to look at the whole picture, sure, I think I have another 170 pages in me

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

I suspect you know that finding BSFC maps for most cars is impossible. While absolute lowest g/kwh is usually only a very small area of the map, it's usually accompanied by a very large area either side where economy only drops by a few g/kwh. It's fairly easy to find your BSFC sweet spot with an MPGuino or equivalent. You will actually see a dip at BSFC, fuel use will be higher and lower in the torque/rpm/load map. Having a supplied graph is nice, but it's not that hard to do for yourself.

MPGunio (or similar) .. can not produce an even remotely accurate BSFC... too many unknown (but involved) variables that those devices can not measure , or account for... They do not show you BSFC .. not dipping or doing anything else.

Remember the difference between Energy Efficiency and Fuel Efficiency.

BSFC Energy Efficiency can go down while MPG / FE goes up ... and vise versa.

For example:
65 MPG @ 70 MPH in a Gen1 Insight is at a significantly higher BSFC ICE energy Efficiency... Than ... 130 MPG @ 30 MPH in the same Gen1 Insight. .. under otherwise the same conditions ... Even though the MPG/FE is much lower.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by oldtamiyaphile

That's why I feel you need to use the true cost of a vehicle not 'what you pay', that's why 1st Gens don't make sense.

Except 'true' is very subjective thing... far to 'subjective' to be very useful in any kind of fair , scientific , or unbiased sense.

What is the 'true' price of fuel ... including military wars (and human lives lost in them) ... Including health care from pollution ... including medical insurance for oil workers , refinery workers, salesman ... retirement plans for all related employees ... for all chemistry research done for oil , on oil , or any oil-alternative ... etc ... etc.

What's the 'true' cost of an 'import' vs a 'domestic' ... lost jobs ... lost local economy .. inflation ... effects to the real-estate market ... etc.

Maybe with enough 'true' costs ... that $17,000 car ends up being $34,000??? for the gasoline becomes $100 per gallon ... etc... etc... Where to stop adding 'true' costs becomes very subjective ... thus a very bad criteria.