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Old 09-04-2008, 03:37 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MazdaMatt View Post
James, i really like that last paragraph.
Same here.

My Wife asked me the other day about how to solve our "dependency on foreign oil" -- something her students were discussing. Since the topic is common here, I thought, "Well, that's easy. You just, um --"

But it isn't.

After talking it over for while...

The core is to reduce consumption. The secondaries would be to develop a range of alternatives: Butanol, Ethanol, CNG/LPG, Clean Diesel, Hydrogen / Fuel Cell, better batteries and technology for hybrids, Mass Transit, and self-propelled (bike, walk, etc). Regulars here know this stuff.

The public has to be willing to change. If they're not, it apparently takes expensive fuel to do so.

Drilling here? My environmental side says no and to try other things first. igo has a good point.

Basically, nothing is going to change unless We do.

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Old 09-04-2008, 03:44 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Americans can be convinced to stop doing anything if they are told it helps terrorism! Try that! "Oil comes from terrorists! do YOU have terrorists in your gas tank!? Uncle Sam Wants YOU to stop driving your V8 terror-mobile and FIGHT the WAR on terrorists! Bald Eagles don't use gas or support terrorists so gas is non-patriotic and pro-terrorism! TERROR TERROR TERROR!!! RED ALART!".
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:10 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I do agree that our consumer culture is excessive. Who really needs a 4500 square foot house for a family of four? We have gotten used to a lot of things that use a lot of energy. Some of them good things. I am glad that I get to shower daily instead of bathing just once a week. I like A/C in summer and heat in the winter. No matter how big our houses or our cars, we need to make sure that they are efficient. I hate those plumbing ads where they have created a human car wash. Sure each shower head only uses 2.5 gpm of water but there are 10 of them. Our electronics are also sucking up a lot of power even when they are "off". This is ridiculous.

As far as drilling is concerned, it will probably not really affect the price of gas in the long term. I am still for it for the following reasons: 1. Americans seem to have a "Not in my backyard" mentality. We are willing to pollute other parts of the world for our oil but not our own (and no I don't think we should pollute our own but we have stricter controls). 2. Many of the oil supplying countries hate us. I would rather pay our own companies and economy. 3. Oil is going to remain an important energy source in the near future even if we turn all of our cars into electric.

Out of the available energy, conservation has by far the least impact. Oil is not the only source of energy with issues - coal is dirty but abundant, nuclear has problems with pollution from mining and from disposal and can be dangerous to use, large scale hydro damages ecosystems, solar is expensive and inefficient, wind kills birds and bats and can be unsightly. The good thing about the high current cost of oil is it makes us think and people have been modifying their behavior. Hopefully it will stay high enough to make those modifications permanent since Congress has been unwilling to take decisive action. The dollar has a greater impact anyway.
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:12 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MazdaMatt View Post
Americans can be convinced to stop doing anything if they are told it helps terrorism! Try that! "Oil comes from terrorists! do YOU have terrorists in your gas tank!? Uncle Sam Wants YOU to stop driving your V8 terror-mobile and FIGHT the WAR on terrorists! Bald Eagles don't use gas or support terrorists so gas is non-patriotic and pro-terrorism! TERROR TERROR TERROR!!! RED ALART!".
Yeah, and instead, we got exactly the opposite. "They want you to be scared. Show you're not scared by going out and buying, buying, buying! Hey, if you fake a business reason, we'll let you write off a new vehicle, but only if it's big enough!"
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:26 PM   #15 (permalink)
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There are a lot of things that we could be doing to be more efficient. I've mused that I've got a fridge that pumps heat out the back warming the house and an air conditioner pumping heat out of the house, then I've got a water heater using fuel to generate heat. I've also got world class clean water sitting in a bowl that I poop into while I've got reasonably clean water just running down the drain when I shower or rinse my hands.

I'd like to see more of a "heat exhange" line of appliances. My fridge can cool my food by heating my water, along with my a/c. My hand-rincing water could go into the pooper, or with mild filtration and wise cleaning product selection, it could be used to water my lawn. All my drainage water could run through a turbine and my incoming water has way more pressure than needed... it could turn a turbine as well.
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:46 PM   #16 (permalink)
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My hand-rincing water could go into the pooper, or with mild filtration and wise cleaning product selection, it could be used to water my lawn.
I totally agree. It is so anoying to have the gray water going down the drain. It also bugs me that two or more gallons of water go down the drain waiting for the water to warm up. I know in some places you can actually get a hot water recirc system that sends the cold water back to the heater. During the big Nor Cal drought of the 70's we used to shower with a bucket and then use the water to flush with. We also tried to use the water from the washing machine. Some people would park their cars on the lawn so that they could wash them. It looks like CA may be in the beginnings of a drought. We are being asked to conserve 10-20%. I just changed our shower head to one that uses 1.69 gpm. The two of us will save approximately 300 gal per month.

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Old 09-04-2008, 05:22 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I totally agree. It is so anoying to have the gray water going down the drain. It also bugs me that two or more gallons of water go down the drain waiting for the water to warm up. I know in some places you can actually get a hot water recirc system that sends the cold water back to the heater. During the big Nor Cal drought of the 70's we used to shower with a bucket and then use the water to flush with.
I have a basement, so it would be nice to have a spring-loaded valve at the sinks and shower that would let me temporarily redirect the drain water into a cistern in the basement. That way, if I'm just waiting for the water to warm up, or washing with biodegradeable products, I could reclaim that water. I already have redirected my washing machine into the flower beds below the front of the house. Keeps the ivy green without using extra water.
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Old 09-04-2008, 06:25 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I do agree that our consumer culture is excessive. Who really needs a 4500 square foot house for a family of four?
I don't even know that "excessive" is the right word. I have nothing against luxury, you understand, to say nothing of showering regularly. But where's the luxury in that 4500 sq ft house, when it's on a 10,000 sq ft lot with the neighboring houses so close that you could spit in their windows? The same money (or often less) spent on smaller house on a bigger lot will often be more pleasant to live in, as well as not using as much energy - and having lower mortgage payments, property taxes, insurance, and so on. If you ask me, one of life's greatest luxuries is not having to worry about how I'm going to pay the bills at the end of the month.

This vaunted lifestyle reminds me of nothing so much as the buildings in old western mining towns: a street of pretentious false fronts tacked on to lean-to shacks. The McMansion hides the monthly scramble to meet the mortgage, the Hummer compensates for other insecurities, people spend their free time shopping for things they never need or use, because they can't think of anything more interesting to do.
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Old 09-04-2008, 06:36 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Americans seem to have a "Not in my backyard" mentality.
Thats what they call it here every time something good gets shot down. Nothing ever gets done because a single person or small group of people fights against something that is for the common good of everyone. We have so much friggin wind here off the lake, more wind turbines would be a great idea. But a handful of people (most only live here 3 months out of the year) fight tooth and nail to try to keep Northern Michigan like it was in the days of yore. However I dont hear them whining about cell phone towers everywhere.

Maybe people dont mind oil because they never really see it. They figure terrorism will never happen here, though we did have a Mackinac bridge scare awhile back. I cringe at how people dont seem to care that we are funding the terrorists that are trying to kill us and our economy. Of course smoking kills tons more people here than violence, but since it appears to not do anything to anyone, they recently fought tooth and nail to overturn the law that would have created smoke-free workplaces. Ive never smoked a cigarette in my life, but 3 doctors have told me my lungs look like those of a smoker, likely because most of the people here smoke.

Back on topic, I dont like to hear when they say "we can't drill our way out of this problem". Like another poster, I would rather have our oil stay in America. We do need oil for the time being, until the minorities in America are no longer allowed to make the decisions that govern everyone, and energy alternatives will be widespread.

I try to save whenever I can. I heat my house strictly with wood, 5 people in a 1050 sq foot house. Dont use AC. Turn things off when not using them, including most "dummy loads" by use of a power strip. I use nearly all hand tools and dont have a big screen TV or any of the other things to keep up with the joneses. Sad to say I drive one of the more efficient cars here. Nearly every other guy here still drives a full size pickup truck as a daily commuter. Others havent a clue and think 20 mpg highway in the summer is good for a stickshift Geo Tracker.
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Old 09-04-2008, 07:13 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I think many of you have said it, drilling is not the answer, not because it is a limited resource, but because the companies that drill have a log jam already.

They have areas to drill in that have not been tapped yet, equipment necessary to refine said oil is being manufactured at capasity and takes time to build. I believe it takes something like 5 years to build a refinery and a similar time line to build a new oil rig to draw out oil. So how does that factor into the lets drill equation?

It's not like you can go to Target and buy a refinery or an oil rig. If the rights are released to drill in any area resitricted currently, those "Benefits" will not materialise for several years.

As much as we love them, our beloved cars need to be re-invented and while the emerging technology is in its infancy right now, once that flood gate is opened we will see great things emerge and quickly. Look at how fast technology changes when uninhibited.

Oil is controled by the wealthy and until the wealthy either decide to give up on making money or find a way to really profit off alternative fuels and technology the changes will come slowly.

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