E85 in 2001 Civic DX - It works!

[Frank Lee]

Ethanol just plain doesn't vaporize as easily so cold temps with a cold engine affect startability. Note that it can be bitterly cold, as in below 0F, and a warm engine will run perfectly on E85 even a non-FFV. For example if I'm doing a 300+ mile trip in bitter winter cold I can fill up early on in the trip with E85 and burn that down just fine, then I top off with regular so the next cold start is uneventful.

[darcane]

Originally Posted by sameb

I think the tank holds about 11 gal.

FYI: Your DX should have a 13.2 gallon tank.

[LittleBlackDuck]

Originally Posted by sameb

I've also noticed that the vehicle is a lot harder to start even after a 50 degree night. It's not winter yet! I'm due to replace my battery so hopefully that makes it easy enough.

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

Ethanol just plain doesn't vaporize as easily so cold temps with a cold engine affect startability. Note that it can be bitterly cold, as in below 0F, and a warm engine will run perfectly on E85 even a non-FFV. For example if I'm doing a 300+ mile trip in bitter winter cold I can fill up early on in the trip with E85 and burn that down just fine, then I top off with regular so the next cold start is uneventful.

The other main issue with this type of "conversion" is that it does not alter the injector dead time, starting and advance tables in the ECU. These will contribute to harder starting that gets worse at lower temperatures. I know of vehicles that run on E85 and methanol that start fine at very low temperatures, but they have had the ECU correctly tuned to achieve this.

Swapping injectors is at best, a crude hack that has the potential for lowered efficiency and engine damage.

Simon

[sameb]

Originally Posted by LittleBlackDuck

The other main issue with this type of "conversion" is that it does not alter the injector dead time, starting and advance tables in the ECU. These will contribute to harder starting that gets worse at lower temperatures. I know of vehicles that run on E85 and methanol that start fine at very low temperatures, but they have had the ECU correctly tuned to achieve this.

Swapping injectors is at best, a crude hack that has the potential for lowered efficiency and engine damage.

Simon

What engine damage am I risking?

So far I don't think I'm getting lowered efficiency. The drop in fuel mileage is consistent with the change in stoich ratios.

I do have a megasquirt 3. I soldered it all together and made a harness. I did most of the sensor calibrations then I lost some data. It turned in to too much trouble. If you think what I'm doing now is hazardous I guess I'll have to get the MS going. I figured it would take so much work to get it running as good as stock.

The car has been starting right away after the second pass, ie, I crank the engine for about 3 sec, then let it rest, then it starts normally during the second round of cranking.

[LittleBlackDuck]

Originally Posted by sameb

What engine damage am I risking?

So far I don't think I'm getting lowered efficiency. The drop in fuel mileage is consistent with the change in stoich ratios.

I do have a megasquirt 3. I soldered it all together and made a harness. I did most of the sensor calibrations then I lost some data. It turned in to too much trouble. If you think what I'm doing now is hazardous I guess I'll have to get the MS going. I figured it would take so much work to get it running as good as stock.

The car has been starting right away after the second pass, ie, I crank the engine for about 3 sec, then let it rest, then it starts normally during the second round of cranking.

Running the motor lean and with incorrect (too low) advance risks significantly elevated exhaust temperatures that may burn exhaust valves. This is partly due to the slower burn rate of the alcohol. The lower advance will reduce power output and efficiency.

Have a look at pcmhacking.net - they have modded the Delco ECU to be real time programmable and there are lots of threads on using E85, albeit on Holden engines.

Simon

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by sameb

So you don't think running too lean is hard on the engine? I thought it would go high enough to start burning things or just be weak. I got the code at 4gal, so I didn't want to push it.

Don't wot or over 80% and it won't be hard at all.

Go wot into open loop on an aluminum engine and you can burn stuff

A snoot of either will make it start cold, also auto ether injection kits exist, I'm looking at one now for a cat.

In terms of increasing injector flow rates I would have gone very mild, maybe +10% since most Ecus have a very wide trim to begin with

[LittleBlackDuck]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

Don't wot or over 80% and it won't be hard at all.

Go wot into open loop on an aluminum engine and you can burn stuff

A snoot of either will make it start cold, also auto ether injection kits exist, I'm looking at one now for a cat.

In terms of increasing injector flow rates I would have gone very mild, maybe +10% since most Ecus have a very wide trim to begin with

Aluminium or cast iron will not make any difference unless your engine has exhaust valves made from unobtanium or the piston is cast iron!

Burning of the block or head is secondary to damage caused elsewhere, and is done by the burning gases "blow torching" the passage...

Ether makes my cat go to sleep, not wake up

Simon

[rmay635703]

Originally Posted by LittleBlackDuck

Aluminium or cast iron will not make any difference unless your engine has exhaust valves made from unobtanium or the piston is cast iron!

Burning of the block or head is secondary to damage caused elsewhere, and is done by the burning gases "blow torching" the passage...

Ether makes my cat go to sleep, not wake up

Simon

All the stuff you said is nearly impossible on a stock 1996+ with stock injectors.

You have to hold 15.5:1 Afr at wot for nearly a minute on aluminum motors.

Most cars are in limp mode with a cel which simply disallows your situation.

Myself and frank along with hundred of others on the e85 forums have a decade or more experience each burning it and the only cases I am aware of that holed a piston were custom motors.

Find someone who has burned their valves due to e85 and post it here, so we can dissect what he did wrong.

[Frank Lee]

I will say that even though I lack instrumentation, when I get the CEL there are no symptoms, as in, CEL on and engine still runs perfectly, no stumbling, hesitation, or anything. So mixture must be good or at worst not that far off.

Different vehicles respond differently. Straight E85 in the Tempo will light the CEL 100% of the time until I blend in more regular. However, straight E85 in the F150 results in the CEL under some conditions and then it goes out. I figure pickups are allowed to go a bit richer than cars under some conditions because they are expected to work harder. Either way, the only operational issues I've seen with many years of E85 use are harder starting/stumbling when cold, all of which goes away once engine warms.

[sameb]

Originally Posted by rmay635703

All the stuff you said is nearly impossible on a stock 1996+ with stock injectors.

You have to hold 15.5:1 Afr at wot for nearly a minute on aluminum motors.

Most cars are in limp mode with a cel which simply disallows your situation.

Myself and frank along with hundred of others on the e85 forums have a decade or more experience each burning it and the only cases I am aware of that holed a piston were custom motors.

Find someone who has burned their valves due to e85 and post it here, so we can dissect what he did wrong.

So you're saying that the fuel trims will cover me from over lean even in open loop, and that even if they didn't the limp mode would kick in? I guess I'm not really relying on fuel trims to protect from lean burn since the larger injectors that should be pushing all the maps high enough.

For some reason I thought that the timing advance was being automatically adjusted... but I don't have any evidence of that. It is worrisome about burning ports downstream of the valves since the fuel might still be burning.

I looked at the pcmhacking site. I can't find anything about compatibility with 7th gen hondas. I also searched for delco ecu's on amazon and the fitment calculator came up with nothing. I have the megasquirt if I needed to have a custom tune.

The way that it starts is strange, because it's just fine after the second round of cranking. I tried letting the fuel pump prime longer and that didn't help.

The issue I am having now is the decrease in vehicle range. Once I get my home fueling setup going that should be fine.

Thanks for the discussion, its been great!