Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Fossil Fuel Free
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-04-2016, 01:37 PM   #11 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,761

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,584
Thanked 3,546 Times in 2,215 Posts
Ethanol just plain doesn't vaporize as easily so cold temps with a cold engine affect startability. Note that it can be bitterly cold, as in below 0F, and a warm engine will run perfectly on E85 even a non-FFV. For example if I'm doing a 300+ mile trip in bitter winter cold I can fill up early on in the trip with E85 and burn that down just fine, then I top off with regular so the next cold start is uneventful.

__________________


  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 10-04-2016, 06:33 PM   #12 (permalink)
.........................
 
darcane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Buckley, WA
Posts: 1,586

Ninja 650R - '06 Kawasaki Ninja 650R
90 day: 52.02 mpg (US)

B*tch - '01 Honda Civic HX
Team Honda
90 day: 38.09 mpg (US)

Ms. Hyde - '06 Cadillac CTS V
Sports Cars
90 day: 16.93 mpg (US)
Thanks: 375
Thanked 480 Times in 311 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sameb View Post
I think the tank holds about 11 gal.
FYI: Your DX should have a 13.2 gallon tank.
__________________
2001 Civic HX Mods


Past Cars:
CTS-V

2003 Silverado Mods
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 12:35 AM   #13 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
LittleBlackDuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: The Land Downunder
Posts: 229

CT - '11 Lexus CT200h Luxury
Thanks: 26
Thanked 80 Times in 61 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sameb View Post
I've also noticed that the vehicle is a lot harder to start even after a 50 degree night. It's not winter yet! I'm due to replace my battery so hopefully that makes it easy enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Lee View Post
Ethanol just plain doesn't vaporize as easily so cold temps with a cold engine affect startability. Note that it can be bitterly cold, as in below 0F, and a warm engine will run perfectly on E85 even a non-FFV. For example if I'm doing a 300+ mile trip in bitter winter cold I can fill up early on in the trip with E85 and burn that down just fine, then I top off with regular so the next cold start is uneventful.
The other main issue with this type of "conversion" is that it does not alter the injector dead time, starting and advance tables in the ECU. These will contribute to harder starting that gets worse at lower temperatures. I know of vehicles that run on E85 and methanol that start fine at very low temperatures, but they have had the ECU correctly tuned to achieve this.

Swapping injectors is at best, a crude hack that has the potential for lowered efficiency and engine damage.

Simon
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 07:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
Rogue Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cottage Grove, OR
Posts: 26
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlackDuck View Post
The other main issue with this type of "conversion" is that it does not alter the injector dead time, starting and advance tables in the ECU. These will contribute to harder starting that gets worse at lower temperatures. I know of vehicles that run on E85 and methanol that start fine at very low temperatures, but they have had the ECU correctly tuned to achieve this.

Swapping injectors is at best, a crude hack that has the potential for lowered efficiency and engine damage.

Simon
What engine damage am I risking?

So far I don't think I'm getting lowered efficiency. The drop in fuel mileage is consistent with the change in stoich ratios.

I do have a megasquirt 3. I soldered it all together and made a harness. I did most of the sensor calibrations then I lost some data. It turned in to too much trouble. If you think what I'm doing now is hazardous I guess I'll have to get the MS going. I figured it would take so much work to get it running as good as stock.

The car has been starting right away after the second pass, ie, I crank the engine for about 3 sec, then let it rest, then it starts normally during the second round of cranking.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-05-2016, 10:30 PM   #15 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
LittleBlackDuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: The Land Downunder
Posts: 229

CT - '11 Lexus CT200h Luxury
Thanks: 26
Thanked 80 Times in 61 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sameb View Post
What engine damage am I risking?

So far I don't think I'm getting lowered efficiency. The drop in fuel mileage is consistent with the change in stoich ratios.

I do have a megasquirt 3. I soldered it all together and made a harness. I did most of the sensor calibrations then I lost some data. It turned in to too much trouble. If you think what I'm doing now is hazardous I guess I'll have to get the MS going. I figured it would take so much work to get it running as good as stock.

The car has been starting right away after the second pass, ie, I crank the engine for about 3 sec, then let it rest, then it starts normally during the second round of cranking.
Running the motor lean and with incorrect (too low) advance risks significantly elevated exhaust temperatures that may burn exhaust valves. This is partly due to the slower burn rate of the alcohol. The lower advance will reduce power output and efficiency.

Have a look at pcmhacking.net - they have modded the Delco ECU to be real time programmable and there are lots of threads on using E85, albeit on Holden engines.

Simon
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2016, 09:25 AM   #16 (permalink)
home of the odd vehicles
 
rmay635703's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere in WI
Posts: 3,470

Silver - '10 Chevy Cobalt XFE
Thanks: 388
Thanked 734 Times in 549 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sameb View Post
So you don't think running too lean is hard on the engine? I thought it would go high enough to start burning things or just be weak. I got the code at 4gal, so I didn't want to push it.
Don't wot or over 80% and it won't be hard at all.

Go wot into open loop on an aluminum engine and you can burn stuff

A snoot of either will make it start cold, also auto ether injection kits exist, I'm looking at one now for a cat.

In terms of increasing injector flow rates I would have gone very mild, maybe +10% since most Ecus have a very wide trim to begin with

Last edited by rmay635703; 10-06-2016 at 09:31 AM..
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2016, 04:18 PM   #17 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
LittleBlackDuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: The Land Downunder
Posts: 229

CT - '11 Lexus CT200h Luxury
Thanks: 26
Thanked 80 Times in 61 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
Don't wot or over 80% and it won't be hard at all.

Go wot into open loop on an aluminum engine and you can burn stuff

A snoot of either will make it start cold, also auto ether injection kits exist, I'm looking at one now for a cat.

In terms of increasing injector flow rates I would have gone very mild, maybe +10% since most Ecus have a very wide trim to begin with
Aluminium or cast iron will not make any difference unless your engine has exhaust valves made from unobtanium or the piston is cast iron!

Burning of the block or head is secondary to damage caused elsewhere, and is done by the burning gases "blow torching" the passage...

Ether makes my cat go to sleep, not wake up

Simon
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2016, 07:37 PM   #18 (permalink)
home of the odd vehicles
 
rmay635703's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere in WI
Posts: 3,470

Silver - '10 Chevy Cobalt XFE
Thanks: 388
Thanked 734 Times in 549 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by LittleBlackDuck View Post
Aluminium or cast iron will not make any difference unless your engine has exhaust valves made from unobtanium or the piston is cast iron!

Burning of the block or head is secondary to damage caused elsewhere, and is done by the burning gases "blow torching" the passage...

Ether makes my cat go to sleep, not wake up

Simon
All the stuff you said is nearly impossible on a stock 1996+ with stock injectors.

You have to hold 15.5:1 Afr at wot for nearly a minute on aluminum motors.

Most cars are in limp mode with a cel which simply disallows your situation.

Myself and frank along with hundred of others on the e85 forums have a decade or more experience each burning it and the only cases I am aware of that holed a piston were custom motors.

Find someone who has burned their valves due to e85 and post it here, so we can dissect what he did wrong.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-06-2016, 11:09 PM   #19 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,761

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,584
Thanked 3,546 Times in 2,215 Posts
I will say that even though I lack instrumentation, when I get the CEL there are no symptoms, as in, CEL on and engine still runs perfectly, no stumbling, hesitation, or anything. So mixture must be good or at worst not that far off.

Different vehicles respond differently. Straight E85 in the Tempo will light the CEL 100% of the time until I blend in more regular. However, straight E85 in the F150 results in the CEL under some conditions and then it goes out. I figure pickups are allowed to go a bit richer than cars under some conditions because they are expected to work harder. Either way, the only operational issues I've seen with many years of E85 use are harder starting/stumbling when cold, all of which goes away once engine warms.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2016, 12:44 AM   #20 (permalink)
Rogue Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cottage Grove, OR
Posts: 26
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
All the stuff you said is nearly impossible on a stock 1996+ with stock injectors.

You have to hold 15.5:1 Afr at wot for nearly a minute on aluminum motors.

Most cars are in limp mode with a cel which simply disallows your situation.

Myself and frank along with hundred of others on the e85 forums have a decade or more experience each burning it and the only cases I am aware of that holed a piston were custom motors.

Find someone who has burned their valves due to e85 and post it here, so we can dissect what he did wrong.
So you're saying that the fuel trims will cover me from over lean even in open loop, and that even if they didn't the limp mode would kick in? I guess I'm not really relying on fuel trims to protect from lean burn since the larger injectors that should be pushing all the maps high enough.

For some reason I thought that the timing advance was being automatically adjusted... but I don't have any evidence of that. It is worrisome about burning ports downstream of the valves since the fuel might still be burning.

I looked at the pcmhacking site. I can't find anything about compatibility with 7th gen hondas. I also searched for delco ecu's on amazon and the fitment calculator came up with nothing. I have the megasquirt if I needed to have a custom tune.

The way that it starts is strange, because it's just fine after the second round of cranking. I tried letting the fuel pump prime longer and that didn't help.

The issue I am having now is the decrease in vehicle range. Once I get my home fueling setup going that should be fine.

Thanks for the discussion, its been great!

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Tags
2001 honda civic dx, d17a1, e85, high compression, rsx-s injector

Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com