Ecoscort - 98 Ford Escort ZX2 ecomodding thread

[hardline]

I think that turbo is too big. I am using a GTX2863R and I don't start to even see boost until 2000 RPM, and fully spooled by 3600 RPM, but then again I am running much higher pressures, and for a different intended purpose than you are wanting to do.

Specs below for my turbo.

Compressor - GTX2863R
Inducer - 47.1mm
Exducer - 63.4mm

Compressor Housing - GT28 with Anti-Surge Machining
Inlet - 3"
Outlet - 2"
A/R - .60

Turbine - GT28
Inducer - 53.9mm
Exducer - 47.0mm

Turbine Housing - T31
Inlet - T3 flange
Outlet - 2.5"
A/R Ratio - .82

CHRA
Dual ball bearing
Water cooled

[BabyDiesel]

Originally Posted by pgfpro

With the Cd you have now that would be a good choice with a 2.0 L engine, if you somehow get it down to a 1.0 L then I would go much smaller.

If you drop your Cd down from what it is. sub-0.20 Cd then you will just use the turbo gain some HP when not in lean burn. So in this case i would run a much smaller turbo.

Can you explain why it is too small? Not trying to be hard, I just want to know would it be too big even if VGT was enabled?

Originally Posted by hardline

I think that turbo is too big. I am using a GTX2863R and I don't start to even see boost until 2000 RPM, and fully spooled by 3600 RPM, but then again I am running much higher pressures, and for a different intended purpose than you are wanting to do.

Specs below for my turbo.

Compressor - GTX2863R
Inducer - 47.1mm
Exducer - 63.4mm

Compressor Housing - GT28 with Anti-Surge Machining
Inlet - 3"
Outlet - 2"
A/R - .60

Turbine - GT28
Inducer - 53.9mm
Exducer - 47.0mm

Turbine Housing - T31
Inlet - T3 flange
Outlet - 2.5"
A/R Ratio - .82

CHRA
Dual ball bearing
Water cooled

If the 6.0 turbo is too big, then yours is almost right. I want/need no boost until 2500-2600 rpm. When i swap to a Escort Sedan manual tranny, i will be turning 2250 @ 55 mph. I need to reserach and find a turbo slightly bigger than yours. One off a V6 *should* be what I need.

[hardline]

Start pouring over compressor maps and find what best fits your needs

[hardline]

The GT35R has a decent efficiency island in the lower pressure ratio region, The turbo I use, while it may "work", it is not operating anywhere close to it's peak thermal efficiency, and is needlessly converting exhaust energy to heat in the compressor. My turbo is made for boost, and lots of it (like 15-24 PSI in the peak range)

[pgfpro]

Can you explain why it is too small? Not trying to be hard, I just want to know would it be too big even if VGT was enabled?

If I understand your question correctly, your asking why the 1.0 L won't work when in boost and will have to be used like a N/A lean burn engine???

[hardline]

You need a certain amount of airflow to spool the turbine. VGT only goes so far in regards to that. The VGT turbo would be an interesting choice with the 2.0 setup, but the 1.0 just doesnt put enough energy into the turbine. BTW, if you get the VGT turbo that is canbus enabled, MS3 can address that and control the pitch angle of the vanes.

[Tygen1]

Originally Posted by BabyDiesel

I read through your thread here and at d series, incredible! I really wish the boat tail would have been tested, it looked like a winner!

I have been thinking about turbos for the Escort. I decided that I wanted to keep it in the family though, so my first thought was a Garret GT3782 off of a 6.0 Powerstroke

Here are the stats from the ford-trucks forum.

compressor side:
IND whl = 59.10mm
EXD whl = 82.00mm
Trim = 52
A/R = 0.54

turbine side:
Whl dia = 72.50
Trim = 84
A/R = 1.12

Let me know if this is even a possible choice.



The converstation is everywhere Hardline! I am seeing that the asymmetric cam is the way to go. I will probably have to get a custom cam from Crower, but that is fine by me.

I will not cut and lifters either, that sounds scary! I wasn't going to do it, just joking around with a way to achieve what Russell (pgfpro) has.

In my opinion, the Turbine side of the 6.0 turbos is much to large to get a reasonable amount of spool, not to mention they weigh almost 40 lb's. There is also a GT3576VA that was on the VT365 International motors. The Turbine side on the GT3576VA is a bit smaller than the 6.0 version, but my feeling is that it is just too big. Remember it's not just airflow that drives a turbine, it's the expansion happening from the combustion. Expansion from the heat generated during combustion. When you're lean, you combustion temperatures will be lower and you will have more difficulty driving the turbine. When I was dreaming of turbos, I thought a VW TDI VNT turbo might be ideal. I don't imagine it would be hard to create a control for the VNT and they are quite small and have many aftermarket options. There is also the Dodge/Mercedes Sprinters that are a GT2056 VNT turbo if you want somthing a bit bigger...

[BabyDiesel]

Pgfpro -

If I understand your question correctly, your asking why the 1.0 L won't work when in boost and will have to be used like a N/A lean burn engine???

Uggghhhhh I hate it when I don't reread my typing! I meant "too big", but you had no way of knowing that...

Specifically, the question I was trying to ask was for you to explain the details behind why the 6.0 turbo is too BIG and what effects would having VGT mode enabled have on my setup? Once again, I'm not trying to be hard-headed, just wanting to know why the answer is no

I want to go ahead and state this - There will be no 1.0! I'm going to stay with the 2.0 Zetec engine and will attempt to "decrease displacement" on the lower rpm band through utilizing the Atkinson cycle, warm air intake and the 3.5 valve setup

Hardline -

Start pouring over compressor maps and find what best fits your needs

You need a certain amount of airflow to spool the turbine. VGT only goes so far in regards to that. The VGT turbo would be an interesting choice with the 2.0 setup, but the 1.0 just doesnt put enough energy into the turbine. BTW, if you get the VGT turbo that is canbus enabled, MS3 can address that and control the pitch angle of the vanes.

I have been looking at compressor maps this afternoon during my breaks at work. I'm trying to understand what everything on the map means. It will just take time and more research till that happens. I have been looking at this site that goes in to the formulas and physics behind it all -> How to read a turbo compressor map

I'm thinking that variable nature of the big Garrett turbo will help it spool. Whether it spools when I want it is a different story... I do not want any boost before 2500 rpm. If I top out at 4-5 psi @ 6000 rpm, then I'll be thrilled. I'm not looking for high end power, just for a more efficient acceleration when needed with a completely N/A lean cruise. The turbo also serves the purpose of heating and swirling the air going into the engine, both of which help with lean burn. The computers on the 6.0 powerstroke F-series had something dealing with Canbus, I have read it somewhere. Being able to control the vanes would be beneficial, no doubt!

Also, you can post pictures now, since your post count has exceeded 5

Tygen1 -

In my opinion, the Turbine side of the 6.0 turbos is much to large to get a reasonable amount of spool, not to mention they weigh almost 40 lb's. There is also a GT3576VA that was on the VT365 International motors. The Turbine side on the GT3576VA is a bit smaller than the 6.0 version, but my feeling is that it is just too big. Remember it's not just airflow that drives a turbine, it's the expansion happening from the combustion. Expansion from the heat generated during combustion. When you're lean, you combustion temperatures will be lower and you will have more difficulty driving the turbine. When I was dreaming of turbos, I thought a VW TDI VNT turbo might be ideal. I don't imagine it would be hard to create a control for the VNT and they are quite small and have many aftermarket options. There is also the Dodge/Mercedes Sprinters that are a GT2056 VNT turbo if you want somthing a bit bigger...

The 6.0 turbo is huge for sure. I did not know it weighed as much as my A/C and P/S delete though! The bigness is kinda the reason I selected it: to prevent the chance of any boost below 2500 rpm.

I drive trucks with the GT3576VA at work, they spool up quick coupled with the DT466 engine! I will look into their maps a little later and compare them, along with the Sprinter turbos!

The italicized portion is my doing so I can show where our views are mismatched. Since my engine is too big for my goals (100+ mpg @ 45 mph), I cannot run any boost in lean burn according to pgfpro. I would need AFRs of 40+:1 This means the turbo will have the part of making boost for a more efficient acceleration and maybe some interesting passes Since I am retarding my intake cam to create an Atkinson cycle, this also has the effect of breathing better and possibly making more power higher in the powerband. Better breathing = more expansion = makes boost, if my logic is correct.

If anything does not make sense, just let me know and I will try to explain myself some more. I am tired and heavy-eyed as I type this, so there might be a mistake or 3

[pgfpro]

Uggghhhhh I hate it when I don't reread my typing! I meant "too big", but you had no way of knowing that...

Specifically, the question I was trying to ask was for you to explain the details behind why the 6.0 turbo is too BIG and what effects would having VGT mode enabled have on my setup? Once again, I'm not trying to be hard-headed, just wanting to know why the answer is no

OK that I understand.

First lets look at the 6.0 turbo
compressor side:
IND whl = 59.10mm
EXD whl = 82.00mm
Trim = 52
A/R = 0.54

turbine side:
Whl dia = 72.50
Trim = 84
A/R = 1.12

A way to get you close to what a turbo will make for power is by the turbos compressor wheel IND size. General rule of thumb what ever the number of the inducer is in mm just add a zero to it. So 59mm = 590 HP.

This turbo is basically a Garret GT 3782 turbo on a different turbine housing.
I have use this turbo on an EVO and know it will make around 600HP.
The turbo at a 2.5 PR with a decent 2.0 L engine will flow around 59 lbs/min
Some rough math...
59 lbs/min * 60 = 3540 lbs/hr
3540lbs/min / 12.5 A/F = 283 lbs/hr worth of fuel.
283 lbs/hr / .50 bsfc = 566 HP
283 lbs/hr / .45 bsfc = 628 HP

So thats cool and everything but keep in mind I know nothing about your engine design, but I would highly recommend some great internals to keep from the engine having a yard sell.

Now for trying to get great FE and HP I would go with something a lot smaller. One thing the 6.0 turbo has against itself when it comes to FE is its internal mass. That is a fairly heavy compressor wheel and turbine wheel for FE at lower rpm. Spool time will be up in the mid rpm range and if you go Atkinson cycle your going to want it to spool at a lower rpm to pull you out of lean burn. I fought this when i was running my FP Red turbo by itself. The FP Red is basically a Garrett GT 3582 with a 8 cm DSM flange/housing.
61.4 mm comp IND
82.0 mm comp EXD

58 mm EXD hot side
68 mm IND hot side

In lean burn you are basically making a lean A/F hole in the fuel map. When i had my Del Sol with the 15g it worked great just enough to make around 1 psi at 22:1 A/F and i didn't have any problems pulling out of lean burn when needed. Now when i went to the larger holset turbo I could no longer make low psi lean burn and it struggled to get past the lean burn hole when just slowly adding more throttle to it. So I would back out of it and push the accelerator down past mid point to let its sweep past the lean burn hole in the map.

Now with the VGT mode it will help with spool but you will still have the large comp wheel and turbine wheel mass. Plus the housing is design for some decent air flow and your 2.0 L will be low on air flow compared to what the turbo was originally design for.

[pgfpro]

BD

Another great simulator for learning turbo tech is Match Bot from BW.
Performance Turbos | BorgWarner Turbo Systems

I use this one a lot!!!