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Old 05-15-2014, 01:08 PM   #491 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sendler View Post
I went to see the Elio. Talked to a couple nice kids, er, representatives, who had been with the company for two weeks and knew nothing about fuel economy. There was a decent crowd though. It seems any passerby was drawn over for a look and the mall was fairly busy. The car is "going to be" this and going to be that, and going to have a different dash, and going to be 2 inches taller, and going to get 84 mpg and going to sell for $6,800. I mentioned that I didn't think he could hit that price point with air bags, a/c, audio, ect. He must have heard that question before and quickly asked me what I though it would cost as if taking a survey. I said add a 1 in front of the price.
In it's current state, which I doubt the one we were looking at even ran, it is only a little more production ready than some of the better projects I see coming out of someones back yard.
Thanks for the first impressions Sendler.

A couple of questions though: Does this show model have the donor Metro engine or the IAV designed engine (would probably say IAV on it)? Was the interior roomy enough?

I think the question they should be asking is "What SHOULD it cost", not what WOULD it cost. Or maybe "What is the maximum you would pay for this".

It looks like they are integrating several suggestions by those on the forums into the design. Sort of like forum based focus groups I suppose. The design seems to continue to evolve.

The engine looks to be little more than an updated Metro engine. From what I gather it has nikasil lined bores, so an aluminum block, 2 valve head arranged like the metro, and an updated port injected EFI. I'm sure its quite "value engineered" to keep the cost down. I don't see evidence of any cam phasers unless it's all internal. It sounds like the .9L engine is a low speed motor so it could have good swirl and possibly lean burn potential. It doesn't look like any Atkinson potential as it's an SOHC head.

If these go into production, the Ford 1L ecoboost motors would be a fabulous hot rod swap.

Good design is simple. Getting there isn't.
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Old 05-15-2014, 02:27 PM   #492 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by beatr911 View Post
Thanks for the first impressions Sendler.

A couple of questions though: Does this show model have the donor Metro engine or the IAV designed engine.
There is no IAV engine in anything yet. Elio is working with IAV to add legitimacy to the project for the outward appearances of the investors. The whole thing is just a hope and a dream at this point. They declined to open the hood so who knows if that one even runs. The CEO talks a good game but I have seen these types of start ups before. The Execs draw an eight figure salary and milk it for as long as they can without risking a dime of their own money before the whole thing goes bust and they blame it on a lack of participation by government funding and tax incentives.
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Old 05-15-2014, 04:06 PM   #493 (permalink)
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Was it the same color as this one?

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Old 05-15-2014, 04:34 PM   #494 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard View Post
Where did you see the information of where and when this happened? I'm still hoping to see where the event here in MA is happening.
Elio Motors: Ultra High Mileage Vehicle
Or just got to their facebook page. They'll update the details a few days before they go to a different area.
I try to be helpful. I'm not an expert.
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Old 05-15-2014, 09:57 PM   #495 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by beatr911 View Post
It doesn't look like any Atkinson potential as it's an SOHC head.
SOHC head is not a problem at all, since the so-called Atkinson is just about the intake valve timing. But sure it would be harder to match it to VVT
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Old 05-18-2014, 03:19 AM   #496 (permalink)
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Just came across this article, at first glance it looks like good news.

Elio Motors Continues to Win Key Legislative Victories | Virtual-Strategy Magazine

In Colorado, HB 1367, sponsored by Representative Max Tyler, passed through the legislature unanimously (HB 14-1367 - Colorado 2014 Regular Session - Open States). The bill exempts the previous requirement to wear a helmet under the age of 19 and provides a motorcycle endorsement exemption for an Elio. In Illinois, SB 3130 was sponsored by Senator Don Harmon and Representative Camille Lilly. The bill eliminated the motorcycle endorsement requirement for Autocycles (SB 3130 - Illinois 98th Regular Session (2013-2014) - Open States). Illinois doesn’t have a helmet requirement for motorcycles but technically required a motorcycle endorsement for the Elio.

Read more: Elio Motors Continues to Win Key Legislative Victories | Virtual-Strategy Magazine
Read more at Elio Motors Continues to Win Key Legislative Victories | Virtual-Strategy Magazine

But as I sit here thinking about the implications of this does this then mean that in Colorado and Illinois an independent driver of an autocycle will not have access to HOV lanes? Unintended consequences?

Also, thanks to Old Mechanic for that youtube Fox & Friends bit. I have to say though that it answers none of my questions and sort of leaves Paul Elio standing in the dust. Frankly, it made me want to punch someone at Fox in the neck. C'est la vie.
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Old 05-30-2014, 12:27 PM   #497 (permalink)
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Elio is moving forward with developing their own engine.

Elio Motors shows first photos of engine block | TechnologyTell

This makes me even more worried. I am very curious to what features Elio needed in their engine that they could not buy "off the shelf"? Is it going to be more efficient, or more compact, have better crank/conrod/piston geometry, lean burn, etc.?

This will take a very long time. Emissions testing, durability testing, production issues - I can't think they can produce this engine 15,000 times in less than 4-5 years, at least.

Maybe, they will sell the first years of vehicles with an off the shelf motor?
Sincerely, Neil

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Old 05-30-2014, 12:42 PM   #498 (permalink)
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Mind you, they have much more lax emissions requirements, as a motorcycle.

They only have to meet the emissions requirements of a mid 1990s car, really.

I would be completely unsurprised if they completely skip durability testing, though, and launch a total lemon.

As far as actually sourcing an engine to do what they want... the problem is that most of what's on the market (anywhere in the world in current production) likely doesn't quite meet their needs. They seem to want about the output of a Geo Metro's 1.0 (55 hp, 55 ft-lbs) based on what they've been advertising, and minimum necessary displacement, with very low cost and both manual and automatic options. Let's see here...

Kei car engines: ~50-55 hp for a 660 cc NA engine, but lacking in torque, and most of the automatics are CVTs. 63 hp for a 660 cc turbo engine and plenty of torque, but cost is an issue, and the same CVT issue. And, most of these are DOHC == more cost.
Smart ForTwo engine: 75 hp and decent torque, but 1000 cc (bigger than they seem to want), the only transmission choice is dreadful. And it requires premium gas. I forget if this is SOHC or DOHC.
Ford Fox engine: 60 and 85 hp trims, IIRC, for non-turbo, decent torque, but possibly heavier than they want, and cost may be an issue. And it's a 1000 cc engine, too. And the transmission choices are a decent manual and the problematic PowerShift double-clutch box (expensive, too).
VW EA111 1.0: 60 and 75 hp trims, again we're talking about 1000 cc. Transmission choices are a 5-speed manual and a single-clutch automated 5-speed (aka, crap).

The problem is that all the 800 cc engines I can find are a bit weak for what they want, and they seem to want less than 1000 cc. It could also be that other companies don't want to work with them for whatever reason, too...
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Old 05-30-2014, 01:13 PM   #499 (permalink)
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Toyota is producing a new series of 3 cyl. engines.

The federal rollover standard for cars is that the vehicle roof must support a static load 3x the vehicle weight. I'd hope that is gross vehicle weight rather than just dry weight on a motorcycle trike.
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Old 05-30-2014, 01:23 PM   #500 (permalink)
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Initially I thought they were going to use the GEO engines as they had in their "mule". That would have been just fine by me.

The GEO Metro was available with a normally aspirated 3 cyl. 1000cc or you could get a turbo charged version for a little more oomph; the 4 cylinder 1300cc was an option too as I recall. I had a 1998 Metro and it was cheap and easy to work on. Good mpg too.

I was concerned about their "new" engine too as just another element to cause yet another delay on getting this out to market. I have NOT yet invested in it yet as I, like many others feel it is heading toward being another boodogle, which is too bad really.

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