EPA may fine VW

[Hersbird]

Originally Posted by euromodder

The NOx they're pumping out is far worse in the long run than the extra fuel they may use.

I don't know about that. 40 times sounds really bad but we are talking the new standard and I bet those 40 times numbers only occur at 100% throttle. Basically the car is rolling coal. Day to day you are probably talking more like 5 times the .05 g/mile limit which is still better then the 1999 limit of .3g/mile for regular cars. This is only NOx the CO and HC is way lower. Biodiesel also makes NOx levels higher. NOx is bad, don't get me wrong but how bad has acid rain been in the last 20 years? Seems the Co and HC along with the conservation of resources is more pressing lately.

There used to be a smelter down the road that really pumped out the NOx where they were producing 2,000,000 pounds of copper a month, 26% of the total worlds supply at it's peak. They built the smokestack higher the the Washington monument thinking just get it up into the strong winds and it will spread and dissipate over the vast Great Plains. It's hard to judge them, they polluted yes, but I don't know what life would be like without the copper and aluminum they produced for 80 years. I would be willing to buy property in the shadow of that stack today, it's really a beautiful valley again.

[Donahue]

On the west coast, everyone loves foreign cars. I briefly looked into getting one of the earlier TDI's before I picked up my civic. The cheapest ones were still better than twice what I paid for my civic, and I didn't feel the extra cost in maintenance was going to be cost effective in the long run. Around here though, they definitely hold value.

[darcane]

And now this:
AP Analysis: Dozens of Deaths Likely From VW Pollution Dodge - ABC News

VW TDi = killer death machine.

What a load of BS.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Hersbird

up here in the north diesel was consistently $.50-.75 a gallon more then unlead. Now it is actually a little less... I just wonder if this price equality is here to stay or temporary because of the poor economy.

Diesel has historically been lower cost per volume than gasoline. Only the past 15 years has it been more expensive than regular. That said, past performance is no guarantee of future prices.

Note that in general, diesel has to be 30% more expensive than gasoline to break even in fuel cost per mile. If regular is at $3.00/gallon, diesel would need to be at $3.90 to break even on a cost per mile basis.

[Donahue]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Diesel has historically been lower cost per volume than gasoline. Only the past 15 years has it been more expensive than regular. That said, past performance is no guarantee of future prices.

Note that in general, diesel has to be 30% more expensive than gasoline to break even in fuel cost per mile. If regular is at $3.00/gallon, diesel would need to be at $3.90 to break even on a cost per mile basis.

Can you explain that? I am not sure what you are trying to say.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by darcane

And now this:
AP Analysis: Dozens of Deaths Likely From VW Pollution Dodge - ABC News

VW TDi = killer death machine.

What a load of BS.

Agreed.

I'm less concerned that VW violated the misguided EPA, and more concerned with the unfair market advantage it had against a competition that couldn't offer a diesel because they adhered to the regulations.

Consider this from the same article:

The calculations should be put in context of air that is getting dramatically cleaner in the United States, experts said.

A more accurate way to determine the extent of the "problem" caused by VW would be to compare the number of health issues that would be influenced by increased NOx emissions on a year-by-year basis. Also, consider actual air quality samples year by year in various cities.

The article sucks, just as most news sucks. Here is my favorite bit of useless "facts" from the article:

Chris Frey... found pollution 10 times higher than the federal standard, and noticed that the worst pollution came as he got on to highways and in stop-and-go traffic. Those less desirable areas are where poorer people live

As if financial standing has anything to do with the right to have suitability clean air. Would it be more acceptable if that is where rich people tend to live?

Also, those areas are less desirable because of the many types of pollution; noise, air, light... which is why the wealthy tend to avoid those areas. That's the whole point of maximizing personal economic well-being; to achieve a more desirable life-style.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Donahue

Can you explain that? I am not sure what you are trying to say.

A diesel vehicle typically achieves 30% better fuel economy than a comparable gasoline vehicle. Therefore, diesel is generally cheaper to run until it hits 30% or more expensive than gasoline.

This does not take into account that diesel versions of a vehicle typically cost more to purchase.

[RedDevil]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

A diesel vehicle typically achieves 30% better fuel economy than a comparable gasoline vehicle. Therefore, diesel is generally cheaper to run until it hits 30% or more expensive than gasoline.

This does not take into account that diesel versions of a vehicle typically cost more to purchase.

Also, diesel is much heavier per volume than gasoline. If it were sold per weight instead of volume the difference would be smaller.

The rest of the difference is caused by the higher compression ratio and having no air restrictions on the intake, so no pumping loss on lower loads.

[kafer65]

Volkswagen's had many restrictions in the intake for safety and emissions. The Anti shudder Valve for run away protection, EGR valve and my '04 Jetta had flaps deep in the intake manifold, to induce swirl? All but the ASV would get clogged over time. Sometimes the ASV failed defaulting to closed=no start. There is active metering of a high volume of cooled exhaust gases which restrict and displaced intake volume as well.

Its amazing they still make so much torque with such tiny intake manifolds even when everything is clogged to within a pinky finger's diameter. I enjoy the torque very much but the costs associated with making a more robust drive train to cope with the powerful combustion pulses and mitigating emissions translates into very expensive!

CO2 is plant food! Carbon is the most versatile element for molecules for life! The NOx forms the acid that burns eyes and melts statues. I've experienced the smog that forms in California and near here because of trapped air around mountains. I can't stand the smell of untreated diesel and gasoline but its gone too far when the vehicles become to expensive and complicated to meet the needs of the folks that literally drive are economony.

I thought that selective catalyst reduction (SCR) using urea reduced NOx to N2, water,soot and plant food reducing NOx by 90% as after treatment. Anything bigger than a Jetta had to have that after a certain date and now the Jettas have it too, right?

[rmay635703]

The real question is that if officials and testers have been aware of VWs "fraud" since 2010, why did they all of a sudden change views and decide to push this issue harder?

I actually remember reading about this issue years ago and having an argument over how it wasn't really an issue and now it appears VW t'd off enough of the wrong people for action to occur.

All seems odd to me.