Everybody lost their way a long time ago

[SlideWRX]

So America has the cheapest gas, yet everyone is looking to the American market to sell hybrids, EVs and alternative fuel vehicles...

Europe has had horrendous gas prices for decades, and the designs coming out of Europe are no more aero than others. Volkwagen, BMW? They sell the same bodyshells here and there, that are just as boxy as anything else. heck, Toyota sells most of the same bodies here/there and they didn't redesign for significantly better aero over there. It seems the aero friendly consumer is a rare thing, even at $4 or $5+ gallon gas.

I don't blame SUV's or pickup for the current state of affairs because quite simply they are only half of the market. Half the market is/was cars, and everyone bought the low mpg/high hp cars and let the high mileage cars die off.

[99kleansi]

Originally Posted by RobertSmalls

Ah, progress. We would be lost without 530HP front wheel drive commuter cars.

Funny thing is with the amount of programing that goes into my car the AC switch changes fuel and ignition tables to run on cheaper fuel and increase the milage while reducing power.

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by SlideWRX

Europe has had horrendous gas prices for decades, and the designs coming out of Europe are no more aero than others.

The EU test cycle runs at an average of only 32.5 kph - something Hucho blames for the stagnation in aerodynamic progress at around .25 .
I average 60-75 kph while still beating the test rating.

How about we compare the average fuel economy of US and EU cars, or average displacement ?

We've had downsized engines since almost forever - even nimble sportscars of the 60s often only used 1.3 to 1.6 L engines.
Unfortunately, despite the current downsizing of John Doe's rides, another trend is upsizing for those with enough dough.

I don't blame SUV's or pickup for the current state of affairs because quite simply they are only half of the market.

Half the vehicle market is HUGE, and what share of the fuel market do they swallow ?

[Clev]

Originally Posted by SlideWRX

I don't blame SUV's or pickup for the current state of affairs because quite simply they are only half of the market. Half the market is/was cars, and everyone bought the low mpg/high hp cars and let the high mileage cars die off.

Ford has sold 562,000 trucks and SUVs this year so far, versus only 342,000 cars. That's more like 2/3 of the market.

[Angelus359]

I think they should illegalize cars having a drag coefficient greater than .25

[menaus2]

It's simple, most people have bought into the idea that cars are a way of expressing yourself, like the brand of phone, computer, clothes etc... It's the result of a kind of perfect storm of profit maximizing companies, modern marketing techniques, short-sighted government policies, and consumer culture. If you are blind to the physics of things, you are more likely to make your decisions within a socio-cultural context. If you are familiar with Natural Capitalism theory, you also know that ecological value is pretty much ignored, so what people think makes financial sense is off of what it really is in a deeper level.

All that being said, there's nowhere to go but up really. You'd also be surprised how many people are interested in being green, but don't really have the technical knowledge to know how to. Sounds like a ripening opportunity to lead the way to me! Moping on about the situation is all to easy (and all to common), action and hard work is the only way things will change in the end.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by SlideWRX

So America has the cheapest gas, yet everyone is looking to the American market to sell hybrids, EVs and alternative fuel vehicles...

Europe has had horrendous gas prices for decades, and the designs coming out of Europe are no more aero than others. Volkwagen, BMW? They sell the same bodyshells here and there, that are just as boxy as anything else. heck, Toyota sells most of the same bodies here/there and they didn't redesign for significantly better aero over there. It seems the aero friendly consumer is a rare thing, even at $4 or $5+ gallon gas.

I don't blame SUV's or pickup for the current state of affairs because quite simply they are only half of the market. Half the market is/was cars, and everyone bought the low mpg/high hp cars and let the high mileage cars die off.

All those European cars you see in the US are matched by about 5-6x as many with smaller and more economical engines sold in Europe. 3-series - I can buy a 1.6 Petrol, or a 1.8 Diesel one. In the US, 2.5 is the base ?

Toyota, Honda and Nissan all sell Diesel cars in Europe and different models too.

There is a world of cars not sold in the US as well - PSA (Peugeot / Citroen) for a start, FIAT, SKODA etc etc.

As for engineers ruling the roost, my hero (on the left) more or less ran a whole industry (or most of it) in terms of design. It had moments of genius (the original Mini, the 1100 etc.) but it also ran that industry into the buffers.

Each company needs a mix.

[RobertSmalls]

Originally Posted by 99kleansi

Funny thing is with the amount of programing that goes into my car the AC switch changes fuel and ignition tables to run on cheaper fuel and increase the milage while reducing power.

You should start a thread on how you were able to improve the efficiency of the already economical Civic.

You already mentioned you had a 4" exhaust on your Civic, which I'm sure went along with a similarly up-sized intake and different cams. How did you minimize the negative FE impact of those modifications?

[SlideWRX]

Originally Posted by euromodder

Half the vehicle market is HUGE, and what share of the fuel market do they swallow ?

Yes, yes it is! Half of the market is cars that get 'marginally' better mileage than the truck. I was going to bring up the mileage testing or smaller engines, but we were talking about aerodynamics.

Originally Posted by Clev

Ford has sold 562,000 trucks and SUVs this year so far, versus only 342,000 cars. That's more like 2/3 of the market.

And Honda & Volkswagen are mostly car companies with only a few trucks. The percentage between trucks & cars floats every year, but the market is close enough to 50/50 that it means a *lot* of car shoppers really weren't interested in high mileage cars.

Originally Posted by Arragonis

All those European cars you see in the US are matched by about 5-6x as many with smaller and more economical engines sold in Europe. 3-series - I can buy a 1.6 Petrol, or a 1.8 Diesel one. In the US, 2.5 is the base ?

So why not use significantly better aerodynamics instead of a smaller engine? I'm not bashing small engines as a choice, just saying with aerodynamic improvements, one can get a bigger engine *and* better mileage. Or use the small engine and get *really good* mileage. Companies balance sales of 'high' mileage cars with low ones to hit the government targets, not consumer preferences. If consumer preference was for high mileage, Hybrids should have hit a decade earlier in Europe. Aerodynamics should be producing a fleet average of below 0.25 (or so) Cd.

Consumers don't like aerodynamic cars. Not just the truck and SUV crowd. It seems very odd to me, since all the high cost supercars use aerodynamics for downforce, and enough drag reduction (combined with Hp of course) to go past 200 mph. Our aspirational vehicles are aerodynamic, why not regular cars?

[user removed]

What the auto manufacturers have not done, or possibly do not want to do, is to build very high mileage cars that are inexpensive.

Better aero while still using over sized engines means it is almost impossible to make the larger engine maintain higher cruising speeds at decent BSFC rates.

Smaller engines can be made to provide the power necessary for small percentage periods of high sustained loads, like a 7 mile 7% grade while operating at best BSFC under level ground cruising speeds below 70 MPH.

Lower total final drive ratios are a step in the right direction, but the best power trains will allow cruising RPM ranges well below 1500, without restriction of air intake. The EPA projected that power train improvements especially in the area of short term capacitive storage and release of energy independent of engine operation, can double mileage averaged while not changing any other system components.

Better aero improves mileage, but it also reduces the load on the engine and therefore will reduce it's BSFC unless other systems are also refined to take advantage of the lower average total energy demands.

Steps currently being made by Ford, with automated manual transmissions like the dual clutch 6 speeds, and higher compression direct injected lower displacement engines are definitely a significant improvement, but the future is in Infinitely variable transmissions that allow independent engine on-off cycling at lower sustained speeds and still maintain high BSFC at higher sustained speeds by transitioning into a low RPM direct drive operational tactic.

The power train will also allow high efficiency (above 80%) regeneration of braking efforts by using the infinite gear ratios to produce stored energy all the way down to ) wheel speed.

Then the benefits of aero will be fully realized when the complete vehicle system is designed to maximise that benefit, which even at speeds as low as 30 MPH can still be significant when you have eliminated the throttle restriction necessary to make a 200 HP engine only produce 8 HP or less.

Of course when you consider the economic and employment effects of a $10k car that gets 80+ MPG average and virtually eliminates the reapir and maintenance industry, short sighted people will always use the analogy that the loss of jobs outweighs the benefits.
The same logic can be applied to every significant improvement in technology in the past.

A good example is the computer we all use to communicate on this forum and the internet itself. Certainly more people would be employed if we had to do this by snail mail and long distance phone calls using Maybelle the operator to switch you to a different phone exchange with your 5 digit phone number, while your wife hung the lanudry out to dry and the dishes were soaking in the sink waiting to be hand washed.

Why don't we just go back to the pre computer age for full employment.

regards
Mech