Honda Insight w/Acura TSX engine - Ecomodding

[MetroMPG]

Originally Posted by Ecky

What I've heard from others is that it does fine. I'll find out, of course.

If it's any help, I've been running my beater 1.6L Miata with a radiator from a 1.0L Metro. It's half the surface area of the stock radiator. And then I added grille block material in front of it!

I've never seen unusually high coolant temps.

That said, I don't drive the car hard. ~50 mph / 80 kph scenic route cruising on relatively flat terrain is the modus operandi.

[hispanicpanic]

Originally Posted by Ecky

Not yet!

With a CRX you're likely to need a large hood cutout, the engine bay isn't tall enough for a K series.

Definitely. I've got ideas for that anyways. Which k24 is this insight using? There are some with the integrated exhaust manifold that I would assume get slightly better gas mileage then some of the other k24s. Although the k24s in the Honda CRVs are dirt cheap too. It'll be hard to pass up on!

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by hispanicpanic

Definitely. I've got ideas for that anyways. Which k24 is this insight using? There are some with the integrated exhaust manifold that I would assume get slightly better gas mileage then some of the other k24s. Although the k24s in the Honda CRVs are dirt cheap too. It'll be hard to pass up on!

I would have preferred a K24Z7 (200HP, integrated exhaust manifold), but there are apparently some serious challenges to using this engine which are related to the crank sensor using a signaling which no cable throttle ECU can read, no DBW ECU which can put out any signals compatible with anything in the Insight, and there being no easy path to drive by wire.

I went with RSX computer and wiring connected to a K24A2 (205HP) from a TSX, and converted to cable throttle with some Accord parts. I'm happy to detail my full part list. An RSX computer from 02-04 actually works with nearly everything in the Insight.

[Ecky]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qtU...ature=youtu.be

[mpg_numbers_guy]

How is the swap coming along? Are you down to just the tuning now? Looking forward to it's completion and hearing how it sounds.

EDIT: Whoops! Took me too long to write this message (got distracted ) and when I posted, lo, and behold, there was a video!

Sounds great!

[Ecky]

Long day, more to come.

[serialk11r]

Nice to see it coming along. I just remembered that these engines don't have exhaust VVT, and no EGR right?

Aside from tuning it to run lean, you should probably be able to pick up some good gas mileage by adding EGR. I was doing some reading and realized older engines underutilized EGR, as usually you can add about 10% hot EGR to a MPFI engine before combustion quality is negatively affected. It could be a tube sized to provide 10% EGR by mass at say 70kPa vacuum at 2000rpm, which is shut off if the throttle position is too low or if the rpm is too low. Tuning the engine to run slightly lean only gives limited vacuum reduction at low load, while hot EGR helps the mix burn faster and takes out a decent amount of vacuum.

[Ecky]

I'll post a video soon of my drive, but here are some initial impressions:

I think it was a mistake to remove the balance shafts. I may revise my opinion later. The mounts are solid polyurethane and either solid mounts or a balance shaft delete would be fine alone, but together they have similar harshness to the Insight's 3 cylinder at idle, only over a much larger rev range. Lots of stuff buzzes in the car. At first I thought the exhaust was pretty loud but it's actually engine vibrations I'm hearing, being transferred from engine to chassis. Probably doesn't help that the car has no subframe. On the other hand though, I might have been kicking myself had I not deleted them for the fuel economy and performance left on the table.

Speaking of performance, I'm using a "canned tune" that came with the ECU for now. It doesn't idle well but pulls like a freight train in any gear. Vibrations in the car should improve after a tune. If power improves correspondingly to idle after I get it tuned properly, it's going to be terrifying. The engine revs like a sport bike engine and in lower gears the digital speedometer doesn't update quickly enough - I'll see things like "2, 5, 18, 35, 65" - it's very easy to overshoot my target speed.

Fuel economy is likely to be in the 40's for my first tank due to some idling and testing performance. I drove home from NH through torrential rain at ~70 last night and, did I mention, I have to take the transmission apart again because it won't go into 6th? So, close to 50mpg driving at 70 with a poor tune, not in top gear, torrential rain, and no underbody panels in place. Not terrible. I'd likely have been in the 50's with the stock engine and no IMA driving the same path.

I still had some things to do. A/C compressor isn't wired yet. Knock sensor needs to be changed. Cluster needs temp sensor wired up. Car needs to be tuned. Evap system isn't installed. Secondary O2 sensor needs wiring. No cruise control.

But, it runs with no CEL unless I really rev it due to the wrong knock sensor.

[hispanicpanic]

Originally Posted by Ecky

I'll post a video soon of my drive, but here are some initial impressions:

I think it was a mistake to remove the balance shafts. I may revise my opinion later. The mounts are solid polyurethane and either solid mounts or a balance shaft delete would be fine alone, but together they have similar harshness to the Insight's 3 cylinder at idle, only over a much larger rev range. Lots of stuff buzzes in the car. At first I thought the exhaust was pretty loud but it's actually engine vibrations I'm hearing, being transferred from engine to chassis. Probably doesn't help that the car has no subframe. On the other hand though, I might have been kicking myself had I not deleted them for the fuel economy and performance left on the table.

Speaking of performance, I'm using a "canned tune" that came with the ECU for now. It doesn't idle well but pulls like a freight train in any gear. Vibrations in the car should improve after a tune. If power improves correspondingly to idle after I get it tuned properly, it's going to be terrifying. The engine revs like a sport bike engine and in lower gears the digital speedometer doesn't update quickly enough - I'll see things like "2, 5, 18, 35, 65" - it's very easy to overshoot my target speed.

Fuel economy is likely to be in the 40's for my first tank due to some idling and testing performance. I drove home from NH through torrential rain at ~70 last night and, did I mention, I have to take the transmission apart again because it won't go into 6th? So, close to 50mpg driving at 70 with a poor tune, not in top gear, torrential rain, and no underbody panels in place. Not terrible. I'd likely have been in the 50's with the stock engine and no IMA driving the same path.

I still had some things to do. A/C compressor isn't wired yet. Knock sensor needs to be changed. Cluster needs temp sensor wired up. Car needs to be tuned. Evap system isn't installed. Secondary O2 sensor needs wiring. No cruise control.

But, it runs with no CEL unless I really rev it due to the wrong knock sensor.

Wow, progress! But sounds very promising! Honestly i think the majority of the vibration issue is from 1) the poly mounts, and 2) the tune, in that order. Once the tune is cleaned up, it should be more stable and smoother. If you have the OEM style mounts, i highly recommend those, then fill them with window adhesive. I can't recall what the mount situation is, if they're custom or aftermarket, but with poly you will always have that vibration there. It is not pleasant at all....

[Ecky]

The mounts are *very* custom, it was one of the biggest hold-ups.