How do you handle EXTREME tailgaters?

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by ShadeTreeMech

In Britian it is illegal to carry a firearm.

Oversimplification, you need to see this. Its just much harder to get a gun legally, harder than the strictest US state for example, but it is possible. It is easier to get an illegal gun though which is something that needs more attention paid to it. Oddly it is easy to buy something like a crossbow, which is arguably just as dangerous although harder to conceal.

Laws are not a good indicator though. According to law as an Englishman I am required to own and practice the use of a longbow. I am also required to murder any Scotsman I find inside the city walls of York after dark. Thats what happens when you have >1000 years of laws not being reviewed often.

Originally Posted by ShadeTreeMech

And by googling per capita crime rate by country I found this tidbit....

Interesting stats. I found these on Wiki-bl@@dy-pedia from 2000 :

1 - % Homicides with Firearms
2 - Firearm Rate per 100k pop.
3 - Non-Firearm Rate per 100k pop.
4 - Overall homicide per 100k pop.

England and Wales
1 - 8
2 - 0.12
3 - 1.33
4 - 1.45

United States
1 - 46
2 - 2.97
3 - 4.58
4 - 8.55

Mexico
1 - 21
2 - 3.66
3 - 14.1
4 - 17.8

Switzerland
1 - 37
2 - 0.56
3 - 0.96
4 - 1.52

Note - Scotland is not included in the England and Wales figures so those would rise - Scotland has about 8% of the UK population but it has some crime hotspots in the cities.

From these I think I can conclude we have fewer murders with firearms than most, Switzerland's murder rate is lowest of these but more of them are shot than in the UK. More worrying is the overall murder rate difference between countries perhaps ? I know from news items we see here there are quite a few firearms 'incidents' in Switzerland although not all of them end in killings.

The example above about everyone "carrying" to go and buy/sell something is especially odd from my UK central point of view - its the same thought process that leads everyone to buy the biggest SUV they can because "might is right" and they are of course safer (except they aren't as we know from the crash tests).

I also don't buy the "I've had a gun pulled on me and now I carry" argument either. I was mugged and injured slightly as a teenager - the attackers used a knife. It had an effect on my for a while but it didn't make me want to carry a knife to defend myself. Full disclosure - I do carry one, about 1/2 an inch long which is on my key-ring and I use for modelling and has a screwdriver / bottle opener bit

I don't have a problem if people want to have a gun to defend themselves, its your choice and as long as it is within your laws its fine. Up to you. You take the risk and the consequences.

My original "Oh FFS" reaction was to the idea of pulling a gun on someone for road rage. The idea that a "cop buddy" would recommend shooting first is equally stupid - I would question whether this guy should be a cop with that attitude.

Anyway, on with tailgating

[d0sitmatr]

Originally Posted by Arragonis

The idea that a "cop buddy" would recommend shooting first is equally stupid - I would question whether this guy should be a cop with that attitude.

Ive been told straight up by more than 1 sheriff in my hometown, that should someone break into our home and we use a gun on the person, to shoot to kill (not injure) and if he/she manages to make it outside, to pull the body inside before they (police) show up.

Originally Posted by Arragonis

Anyway, on with tailgating

I agree.

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by d0sitmatr

Ive been told straight up by more than 1 sheriff in my hometown, that should someone break into our home and we use a gun on the person, to shoot to kill (not injure) and if he/she manages to make it outside, to pull the body inside before they (police) show up.

That will surely look good when the forensics arrive !

[Arragonis]

Slightly OT, anyone notice that CSI is always situated in a "nice" place - never, for example, CSI Rochdale, or CSI Walsall...

[UFO]

Originally Posted by d0sitmatr

Ive been told straight up by more than 1 sheriff in my hometown, that should someone break into our home and we use a gun on the person, to shoot to kill (not injure) and if he/she manages to make it outside, to pull the body inside before they (police) show up.


I agree.

Sounds like your law enforcement needs to brush up on the law.

[d0sitmatr]

Originally Posted by euromodder

That will surely look good when the forensics arrive !

apparently, since its considered a home invasion, CSI might not even be called in, depending on the circumstances.

Originally Posted by UFO

Sounds like your law enforcement needs to brush up on the law.

I doubt it, FL (and maybe more states) passed a law in the past few years that allows you to defend yourself by any means necessary if you feel your life, or the lives of your family, are endangered.
Im guessing a home invasion/burglary falls at the top of the list in that category.

[endurance]

Originally Posted by d0sitmatr

Ive been told straight up by more than 1 sheriff in my hometown, that should someone break into our home and we use a gun on the person, to shoot to kill (not injure) and if he/she manages to make it outside, to pull the body inside before they (police) show up.

I can tell you from both someone who's worked in both county level and federal law enforcement, as well as some top training by John Farnam, one of the best instructors in the business, you're never better off by moving a body. You were shooting because you were in fear for your life and fired until the individual was no longer a threat to you. That means you don't empty your magazine into the guy after he's turned to run away, you fire until he drops his weapon, turns and starts running, or is inanimate on the floor.

You may in fact have a local sheriff who'd love to see another thug off the streets at any cost, but when his family comes after you in civil court, good luck trying to explain why you tampered with the crime scene after you took their only income away. All the jury needs is the preponderance of the evidence and you lose your life savings to support his family. Thanks, but I'll use whatever means necessary to keep my family alive, but I stop short of modifying a crime scene.

[Frank Lee]

It was just in the news recently that a pharmacist- who blew away a robber- was given a really stiff sentence... life? I'm in favor of people deterring intruders by whatever means necessary, but this guy got a huge sentence for continuing to blow the guy full of holes after he was down.

As far as law enforcement telling people to mess with evidence- I don't think so.

[endurance]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

It was just in the news recently that a pharmacist- who blew away a robber- was given a really stiff sentence... life? I'm in favor of people deterring intruders by whatever means necessary, but this guy got a huge sentence for continuing to blow the guy full of holes after he was down.

As John taught me, one or two holes in the back I can explain, as he was turning away (to run or shield himself as a reflex), but more than that and you got some 'splainin' to do. That's why he teaches firing four shots, move and re-evaluate, fire four more if necessary, move again, but it's the untrained fear response that gets you into trouble. You can't just train that one round will do the job and you can't just keep firing without re-evaluating. You have to train for the real world, where bad guys don't just fall down because you put one round in them. Many folks that are fatally wounded can still remain active for minutes after they're shot. The first guy John shot was dead center in his chest with a .45acp. His reaction was to look down, see blood, turn and run away. He probably died within a minute or two, but had he wanted to, he could have easily returned fire.

[Arragonis]

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

It was just in the news recently that a pharmacist- who blew away a robber- was given a really stiff sentence...

I've heard the "if they fall outside drag them back in argument" elsewhere.

This guy got off with stabbing an intruder to death.

The intruders, there was more than one, had a machettes - I think that qualifies the situation as life threatening.

Bit of road rage ? Hmmm.