Hybrids and electric cars- health risks from EMF's??

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by bwilson4web

Ok, my math suggests:

5/17/04 - 6/0/0 = 12/17/03

So this is the model that letter from 2004 was discussing:


Some of us have thought that Honda re-using the same model name might lead to confusion with the current Honda Insight:

What makes you so sure they fixed the problem in the second generation car? It has a bigger battery and more powerful electric motor.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by tjts1

What makes you so sure they fixed the problem in the second generation car?

What makes you so sure it's a problem?

It would be interesting to do a little experiment: take one of those "Trifield meters" (whatever they are) and measure the EMF from a cell phone held to the driver's ear. Given the inverse square law and the fact that they're DESIGNED to radiate (whereas EMFs from a motor or power supply are waste, and should be minimized), I would bet that they are exposing their users to far more EMF than a hybrid power system.

[bwilson4web]

Originally Posted by tjts1

What makes you so sure they fixed the problem in the second generation car?

I am sure there are two different Insight models, 2003 and 2010. Two different models of Insight is not a problem.

Originally Posted by tjts1

It has a bigger battery and more powerful electric motor.

How many "milligauss (mG)" is "a bigger battery" or a "more powerful electric motor?"

Bob Wilson

[greasemonkee]

It would be difficult to compare health hazards between such different magnetic fields (microwave and DC or low frequency).

There's more to microwave communication that is a hazard vs a continuous carrier or low frequency type wave. When data is added to a carrier wave our cells can accept that signal as authentic "information". There is an established 10 year latency time at this point so you tell me, something that has been known to humankind for about 10-20 years and never before, who is willing to take the risk that there is not a potential catastrophe at hand. Not me

On the other hand, electricity, power lines, and electric motors have been around for quite a while and we are generally more comfortable with the data as we know it.

I own a magnetic field strength meter capable of measuring digital signals of the microwave band. When a phone is a great distance from the towers, output goes to max. I work beside a LOADED G3 tower and to equal the radiation intensity of that, you would have to be 15 feet away from a cellular phone to equal those emissions. Since the intensity increases by the squared function with closing distance, it is obvious what this means for having the emission source hugging you. BUT, total exposure = intensity X exposure time.

I'll tell you this much, if you've got a wireless router in your home it's definitely a waste of time to worry about sitting on an electric motor.

Here is a recent hearing on the subject, but does not deal with DC magnetic fields.
Health Effects of Cell Phone Use - C-SPAN Video Library

[blueflame]

Now looking to move away from the internet router......

But wait, I live in a very high signal zone. We get good reception on all the TV channels with only a lead and no aerial....radio, everything

I have 4 wireless network routers near me that my computer picks up

I'm very near a major freakin freeway and live in Auckland a city compared to LA for cars and car culture.

It would be cool if you could get a score on where you live and work in regards to pollutions and radiations. I suppose its easy to do yourself with instrumentation.

Thanks greasemonkee for highlighting the importance of intensity proximity and time exposed. 24/7 wireless internet routers next to the computer users legs sound like an easy fix. I would like to sometimes turn mine off, but the people downstairs use it.

I wonder what EMF's that occur INSIDE A CAR specifically are different from not being in a car. And whether that car was made of steel, aluminium like the 1st gen Honda Insight in question, glass, or some other non conductive material, or even plastic, fibreglass etc. I think the term is a Faraday cage.

DEFINITION - A Faraday cage is a metallic enclosure that prevents the entry or escape of an electromagnetic field (EM field). An ideal Faraday cage consists of an unbroken, perfectly conducting shell. This ideal cannot be achieved in practice, but can be approached by using fine-mesh copper screening. For best performance, the cage should be directly connected to an earth ground.
Faraday cages are used in electronic labs where stray EM fields must be kept out. This is important in the testing of sensitive wireless receiving equipment. In addition, a Faraday cage can prevent the escape of the EM fields emitted by a cathode-ray-tube (CRT) computer monitor. Such fields can be intercepted and translated to allow hackers to remotely view on-screen data in real time without the need for wires, cables, or cameras. This practice, known as van Eck phreaking, can also be used by government officials to view the computer activities of known criminals and certain criminal suspects.
A heavy-duty Faraday cage can protect against direct lightning strikes. When properly connected to an earth ground, the cage conducts the high current harmlessly to ground, and keeps the EM pulse from affecting personnel or hardware inside.


Every now and then you see a car with the strap hanging down to the road surface. Now I get what they are trying to do. I wonder how long they last? A rolling faraday's cage

[RobertSmalls]

The 1g Insight's 144V battery, power inverter, and assorted electronics are mounted in a sheet-aluminium Faraday cage in the cargo area, and the IMA motor is mounted in a thicker, cast aluminium Faraday cage (the transmission bell housing + engine block assembly). Either cast aluminium is insufficient to block the EMF in question, or the source lies outside the IMA system. In any case, you can buy a "Dr Gauss" EMF meter for $35 and test for yourself. If a copper foil lined firewall is what it takes to get you into the most fuel efficient vehicle, then I'm in favor of it.

Actually, I am in favor of prudent avoidance, when it's convenient. Case in point: I chose to wire my home with Cat5e, not just for performance, but also to reduce my chronic exposure to radio waves. Yet I do own a microwave oven, because the alternative is too inconvenient. If you come up with some inexpensive, lightweight mods to reduce Insight owners' exposure to EMFs, I'd probably implement them on my own car.

Btw, those straps are just to provide an electrical path from the car's frame to the ground to prevent static electric buildup. They do not constitute a Faraday cage because they do not enclose anything.

[tjts1]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

What makes you so sure it's a problem?

I deal with this stuff for a living. A cell phone or TV antenna have completely different shielding requirements from a 3 phase motor. Most cell phones today are already shielded on the front side facing your ear. Thats why you don't see phones with stubby little antenna sticking out anymore. Today the antenna is usually built into a fractal pattern CPB in the back side of the handset.
You can also kill the majority of high power radio transmissions simply by traveling on the lower deck of a cantilever bridge. It doesn't take much more than a very loose faraday cage. A large 3 phase electric motor and its control module will need much tighter shielding. The fact that honda didn't catch this on its first gen insight is very disturbing. This needs more independent testing. The current regulations for EMI only deal with other electronic and radio devices. It doesn't take in the account its effect on the human body. So long as the motor doesn't interfere with the electronics on the car or other nearby vehicles its technically legal. Generally speaking its assumed that so long as there is at least 1 uninterrupted ferrous panel between the the motor and the occupants, there should be plenty of shielding. The problem here is that manufacturers are mounting the battery and control unit inside the cabin of vehicle. You need to put the vehicle on a dynomometer inside an EMI chamber to get a good idea of what the human body is being exposed to in these cars.

I would be very interested to see a study on the cancer rate in people that have done 100k miles or more in one of these cars 10 years from now.

[jamesqf]

Well, you know what you have to do, don't you? Buy a couple more rolls of aluminum foil, and make a jacket and pants to go with your helmet :-)

[chuckm]

Aerohead: Yes, EM field strength varies by the inverse square law. Double the distance from the source will decrease the the strength to 1/4.

Honestly folks, we're talking about low strength fields with exposure times of perhaps 2 or 3 hours a day, usually much less. According to the original post, hybrid vehicles subject the driver to 0.135 gauss at the hip. The earth's natural magnetic field strength is between 0.3 to 0.6 gauss, varying by your location, and you get that 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, for your entire life. I'm not suggesting that anyone live for a year in an MRI machine, but let's lay off the special sauce here.

You want to worry about radiation? I can give you plenty to worry about even without driving a hybrid. Have you tested your house for radon recently? Guess what the number one cause of lung cancer in non-smokers is? Then tack on the ongoing lull in solar activity, (an active sun shields the earth from cosmic rays), and you can tack on another risk (in typical years, cosmic rays constitute about 0.3mSv of the 2.3mSv, or 13%, of the radiation we receive). And let's not forget the biggest EM source in our neighborhood and a leading cause of cancer: the sun! If we really care about cancer, let's figure out how to shut that thing off!

[Jammer]

All I can say is that I am an electronics major and tore into CRT TV sets for half of my life, used to hang around a TV Transmitter site making videos of my car as a teen, I bet I have been exposed to as much EMF as anyone. Am I worried? not really. But then again I don't know what may happen to me in 10-20 years medically speaking either. All I know is I have seen people exposed to all kinds of heavy EM waves and the ones that have past away often times lived a fairly long lifespan and their cause of death was often times not cancer.

I strongly feel we need much more research into the medical effects of EMF on the human body because we have billions of people on this planet exposed to what many would call a high dose of EMF every day. Some might say the jury is still out. It reminds me of global warming, some believe it, some say the earth will heal it's self. I say we need all of the research and data on this stuff as we can get so we can make the correct decisions.

Also, what YEAR was that letter wrote in? It appeared to me to of been wrote in 2001 unless I mis-read the date. This is 2009, and how do we know these EMF numbers apply to this current generation of Honda hybrid Insights?

I need more information before I would lose any sleep over this. I do not mean to be "dis-ing" anyone, and I do believe it is a good issue to bring up here.