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Old 08-31-2008, 04:06 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Hydrogen Generator

I,ve just assembled a 12 v hydrogen generator with just over 1,700 sq in. of plate surface. It sits in a 20 gal drum and my 1st test was incredible. I'm using 8 plates, each 12 x 18 in, with alternating polarity and 3/8 in separation between plates. My problem is I am drawing way too much current, as the cables heated up fairly rapidly. (I went straight from the car battery) I used baking soda as a catalyst (I used a whole box) which performed quite well. I'm looking for recomendations such as should I lower the baking soda content to inhibit the flow of electrons in the water, or would I be better off with a current limiting device? Or maybe I just went way too far with the amount of plate surface? I'd love to hear from anyone who has tried this before.

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Old 08-31-2008, 04:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:32 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Do not use baking soda!!! check out more info here as well --> HHOHow to DIY Huntsville Open Source HHO How to HHO DIY
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Old 09-02-2008, 12:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkSkunk View Post
Do not use baking soda!!!
+1

I use Sodium Hydroxide (Drano in crystal form)......also, I think you used waaaay too much baking soda. Baking soda fouls the plates quickly, and you don't need much. My tank is about 1 liter and I only use a couple teaspoons of Sodium Hydroxide. Best of luck with your experiment. And if you didn't know, there will be flaming when you post HHO threads, so fasten your seatbelt, do what you want, and don't be discouraged.
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Old 09-02-2008, 12:21 PM   #5 (permalink)
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My mistake.....(20 gallons) maybe you aren't using too much electrolyte.
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Old 09-02-2008, 11:22 PM   #6 (permalink)
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take 100 units of work energy from you crank.

using a 95 % efficient alternator to convert to electrical energy.
100 x 0.95 = 95 units of energy.

Using electrical energy to convert water to hydrogen and oxygen (Using highest efficiency experimentally observed 70%)
95 x 0.70 = 66.5 units of energy.

burning in a diesel engine to convert back into mechanical energy (using highest otto engine efficiency that can be expected from a real engine 34%)
66.5 x 0.34 = 22.61 units of energy.


So under optimal conditions you have taken 100 units of energy of mechanical work and converted it to ~23 units of work.

so to save 1 gallon of fuel you will have to burn 4 gallons. Net fuel savings -3 gallons.

not a winning proposition by any means.
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Old 09-03-2008, 07:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnClark View Post
so to save 1 gallon of fuel you will have to burn 4 gallons. Net fuel savings -3 gallons.

not a winning proposition by any means.
Taking your calculations for dead on accurate, I see this as ... for every 4 gallons you burn you get an extra fifth for free ... so he should see a 25% increase in efficiency ... Is that so bad? Other than slowing down, no other mods I have done to my personal vehicle have yielded a percentage improvement that high.
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Old 09-03-2008, 08:11 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Old 09-03-2008, 08:13 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trikkonceptz View Post
Taking your calculations for dead on accurate, I see this as ... for every 4 gallons you burn you get an extra fifth for free ... so he should see a 25% increase in efficiency ... Is that so bad? Other than slowing down, no other mods I have done to my personal vehicle have yielded a percentage improvement that high.
No, You put in around 4 times more work to generate the hydrogen than you get out by burning the hydrogen.


Note that my calculations are very generous too.
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Old 09-03-2008, 10:48 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnClark View Post
No, You put in around 4 times more work to generate the hydrogen than you get out by burning the hydrogen.


Note that my calculations are very generous too.
Assuming that the power from burning of hydrogen with oxygen is the reason for the increase in mileage. (it isn't)

Also, assuming that superheated steam after combustion has no effect on the engine power output near the bottom of the stroke.

Also assuming that hydroxy byproducts have no effect on leaning or the internal temperatures of combustion. (They also can have effects on sensors and negative effects on catalytics.)

Also Assuming that the half reactions between hydrogen, oxygen & nitrogen on the hydrocarbons do not result in lower entropy paths during combustion.
http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=...fier=AD0640169
Check your chem books there are a good deal many paths for hydrocarbon reactions with hydrogen and nitrogen in the mix.

And lastly you have to assume the guy is going to put that in a vehicle, call it a guess but it looks like a setup I would use if I wanted to be welding, which is another interesting use for these units.


To the poster...

To limit current you either need to
1. Change the amount of KOH electrolite (you usually need very little)
2. If you want full control you will need some sort of PWM circuit very similar to what is used on my electric car

The best method of producing hydrogen is by using very brief high voltage pulses, this helps reduce the amount of water vapor. The number and intensity of the pulses determine the rate of production. Oddly enough this circuit Lead Acid Battery Desulfator
for desulphating batteries works well for stationary cells (at home) if you mod it slightly and make sure to set the pulse width small enough to limit amperage to an acceptable level.

A word of warning...

Although it is not in question that if you take the effort to lean beyond just putting an efficient HHO setup in your truck, you will see an improvement in mileage... you should be warned.

Take care to remember that KOH is generally needed as a reactant and will cause engine damage over time, rust, pitting and other issues (baking soda is worse, salt makes chlorine which can kill you), you must take the time to put a proper filter (minimum) or scrubber to keep that nasty stuff out of your engine. Even distance can help in this regard and definately a 2 bowl (canister/bubbler) technique helps.

Also note that you will not see significant increases in mileage (what you feel is significant and what I do are probably different) unless you lean the engine (I assume a newer vehicle). As you probably know leaning an engine can destroy your engine, the jury is out on how far is safe over the long term but I wouldn't recommend doing it too far without a dyno and temperature modules.

Another definate recommendation is to use Acetone anytime you use hydroxy. Your mileage gains will be greater with the combination of acetone and hydroxy as it assists with the excess water vapor and improves lean run ignition. (it also has some interesting timing effects) Acetone can also be run in diesels but only in small quantities aka under 1.5oz per 10 gallon

All the things I mention are in the public domain and freely available, don't pay for ebooks or information, don't buy kits as most all are a ripoff, build your own circuits and system.

Also there are many much much more knowlegable than me on the issue take a look on the many forums and you should find the information you are looking for.

As for me I do not have an HHO box currently fitted, the dangers outweighed the mileage benefit but I am planning on giving it a go again with many of the things I listed above, pulse circuit, filter, etc. I also plan on using it on an old rusted valueless vehicle to negate my fears of destroying it when messing with the lean dials. As for recommendations on PWM or pulsers I can't give one many are in developement and most recommend building your own to the size you need, I myself do not have a new HHO box on my vehicle because of indecision on this matter (that and I couldn't decide which vehicle to sacrafice after finding out about the corrosion issues).

Good Luck On Your Ventures, take care to remember many things are not as easy as they seem to make work well and there may be consequences down the road. Be prepared for these issues and they shouldn't bother you in the future.


Last edited by rmay635703; 09-04-2008 at 12:10 AM.. Reason: bleh, missed an and
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