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Old 05-15-2020, 02:49 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Suggesting,very simplistically,that at least in the case of the Kona,the price of a BEV is ultimately no different than an equivalent ICE variant.
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I understand the point.What I was hoping to illustrate,was,in looking at life-cycle cost,The BEV would ultimately cost no more.
The problem I saw corrected itself. You have the power to go back and edit the Original Post.

I take redpoint5's point
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When I ask how hybrids are overtaxed, I'm not asking in comparison to other countries, I'm asking in comparison to the utilization of public infrastructure with respect to the amount of funds paid to maintain that infrastructure here in the US, or specifically in each state.
Things change:
hardware.slashdot.org: Tesla's Secret Batteries Aim To Rework the Math For Electric Cars and the Grid (reuters.com)

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Old 05-15-2020, 08:32 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ksa8907 View Post
So here's a benefit we realized with this current "pandemic". We can go where we need and don't need to worry about stopping to get gas and presenting another potential exposure risk.
Only if you have a plug in/full EV AND have enough range to get where you are going, which you probably do. Probably. And a house with charging capabilities.

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Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
MOTOR TREND reported on a comparison between the Hyundai Kona 1,6T (ICE) model,and the Kona Electric.
*The 1.6T is $26,995.
*The Electric is $38,285.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*At a 12-year vehicle life-span, 13,000 miles/year,and 2020 dollar-adjusted fuel and electricity pricing,and ignoring all other operating costs:
*The 1.6T costs $46,102 to own and operate.
*The Electric costs $ 46,127 to own and operate.
*A $25 dollar difference overall.

*Production cost of the Kona Electric is $10.174/pound
*Production cost of the Nissan LEAF Plus SL is $11.304/pound
*Production cost of the Tesla Model 3,Standard Range Plus is $ 11.452/pound
*Production cost of the Honda Civic Type R is $ 11.467/pound
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Boy! Those are some expensive pistons!
Very important to actually list those gas prices, are those california prices, or rest of the country prices? Pre or current pandemic prices? And of course, it is difficult to figure out what will last how long, but the electric will likely need a new battery around the 10-12 year mark.

The 1.6T kona limited is $8.87 per pound. I can see comparing the Type R to the model 3, but not sure why you didn't include the gas too.


HOLY ****

A new battery for the 2019 Kona is THIRTY ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS.

https://www.hyundaioempartsdirect.co...ystem--battery

For better or for worse, I predict a lot of these electric cars will have much shorter cradle to grave lifespans than a typical gas/hybrid. More new technology on the road, sure, but at what point is short life more wasteful than longer life lower efficiency?

I used to see a TON of G1 nissan leaves around, almost none of them out and about now, not sure where they went.

Parts list is kind of vague, but it appears that a 2011 leaf battery is $5790.
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Old 05-16-2020, 12:51 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Daschicken View Post
Only if you have a plug in/full EV AND have enough range to get where you are going, which you probably do.

I used to see a TON of G1 nissan leaves around, almost none of them out and about now, not sure where they went.

Parts list is kind of vague, but it appears that a 2011 leaf battery is $5790.
Georgia exports a lot of used BEVs, Wisconsinites used to buy them before the big BEV market collapse here.

A very large percentage of used and wrecked BEVs get exported, which is quite unfortunate for US but I guess good for countries that donít get BEVs natively.

What sucks is that practice removes spare car parts and jacks up used car prices. Some car models have very high rates of export and honestly its a big problem .
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Old 05-16-2020, 02:28 AM   #34 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rmay635703 View Post
Georgia exports a lot of used BEVs, Wisconsinites used to buy them before the big BEV market collapse here.

A very large percentage of used and wrecked BEVs get exported, which is quite unfortunate for US but I guess good for countries that donít get BEVs natively.

What sucks is that practice removes spare car parts and jacks up used car prices. Some car models have very high rates of export and honestly its a big problem .
Having experienced the desire for non domestically sold vehicles, I feel their plight. At least they are able to import them. 25 year import rule here in the U.S. if it wasn't certified for safety and emissions.
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Old 05-17-2020, 02:52 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Daschicken View Post
HOLY ****

A new battery for the 2019 Kona is THIRTY ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS.

https://www.hyundaioempartsdirect.co...ystem--battery

For better or for worse, I predict a lot of these electric cars will have much shorter cradle to grave lifespans than a typical gas/hybrid. More new technology on the road, sure, but at what point is short life more wasteful than longer life lower efficiency?

I used to see a TON of G1 nissan leaves around, almost none of them out and about now, not sure where they went.

Parts list is kind of vague, but it appears that a 2011 leaf battery is $5790.
There are positives and negatives with going with an advanced actively temperature controlled battery. The positive is that the battery lasts a lot longer especially if you do a lot of DC fast charging. The negative is that a more advanced battery costs more.

I'm sure a lot of that difference is volume related. Nissan has sold 300K 1st Gen Leafs and made one replacement pack that fits them all.


Lets say an EV battery only lasts the 100K miles it is warrantied for.

2020 Mini Signature is $26400
It looks like a 10 year old Mini is worth about $5000 so that is $21,400 in depreciation.
100,000 / 31 mpg X $2.50 = $8064 for gas
$430 for a maintenance every 12 months = $4,300

$21,400 + $8064 + $4300 = $33,764 over 10 years / 100K miles


A Mini EV signature is $30,000
We'll say it is worth $0 at the end of 10 years
It is rated at 3.25 miles per KWh so that is 100K / 3.25 x 0.12 = $3692 for electricity.
$100 for a new cabin air filter every 20K miles

So $30,000 + $3692 + $100 = $33,792

So the EV still breaks even with the gasser without any subsidies and assuming gas stays cheap and the EV isn't even worth scrap value at the end of 10 years.
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Old 05-17-2020, 06:48 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Daschicken View Post
Having experienced the desire for non domestically sold vehicles, I feel their plight. At least they are able to import them. 25 year import rule here in the U.S. if it wasn't certified for safety and emissions.
In the case of the USA empty cargo vessel export crisis that spurred this fundamental change of rip off prices in the used car market around 2009
I honestly believe they should jack up export taxes to the buyer especially on high value cars under 4 years old.

The salvage market getting MSRP on certain junked cars needs to be nipped in the bud, a progressive tax on export cars would make it more economical to keep newer used cars in our home market.

This vacuum of the less desirable “newer” used cars makes it harder on everyday people to obtain and maintain a car.
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Old 05-17-2020, 11:20 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
When I ask how hybrids are overtaxed, I'm not asking in comparison to other countries, I'm asking in comparison to the utilization of public infrastructure with respect to the amount of funds paid to maintain that infrastructure here in the US, or specifically in each state.
Sometimes the perceived lack of revenue from a lower usage of road-taxed fuel might be compensated for lower expenses on public healthcare. Well, it's nearly impossible to expect me to look at this point under the very same perspective of someone who lives in the United States, even though I understand what you consider reasonable.
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Old 05-20-2020, 01:32 PM   #38 (permalink)
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prices

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daschicken View Post
Only if you have a plug in/full EV AND have enough range to get where you are going, which you probably do. Probably. And a house with charging capabilities.



Very important to actually list those gas prices, are those california prices, or rest of the country prices? Pre or current pandemic prices? And of course, it is difficult to figure out what will last how long, but the electric will likely need a new battery around the 10-12 year mark.

The 1.6T kona limited is $8.87 per pound. I can see comparing the Type R to the model 3, but not sure why you didn't include the gas too.


HOLY ****

A new battery for the 2019 Kona is THIRTY ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS.

https://www.hyundaioempartsdirect.co...ystem--battery

For better or for worse, I predict a lot of these electric cars will have much shorter cradle to grave lifespans than a typical gas/hybrid. More new technology on the road, sure, but at what point is short life more wasteful than longer life lower efficiency?

I used to see a TON of G1 nissan leaves around, almost none of them out and about now, not sure where they went.

Parts list is kind of vague, but it appears that a 2011 leaf battery is $5790.
The price can be reverse-engineered from the conditions of the thread mentioned,which was stated to be a constant over the life of the comparison.
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Old 05-21-2020, 10:06 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Considering the economic viability of replacing a conventional automatic transmission with an HSD system as Toyota is doing on some of its models, to the point of doing a full-hybrid approach to some models including the Lexus range on many markets, it seems quite easy to make an off-the-shelf EV powertrain. The space saved from the eventual absence of an ICE could be repurposed for a pack of batteries.

The fact that some 48-volt alternator-starters fitted to modern BAS-Hybrid vehicles having more torque than mid-size Euro cars such as the Opel Vectra A used to have about 30 years ago, and across a broader peak torque RPM, is also noticeable.



Now taking as an example the Suzuki S-Cross, even though the power rating for the ISG alternator-starter while serving as an auxiliary motor might seem negligible, it's worth to notice most vehicles don't need more than 15 or 20 horsepower to retain a constant speed even on road traffic, then with the available CVT a full-electric version relying mostly on parts already available could be eventually realistic and decrease development and manufacturing cost.



Even though EVs are not really my cup of tea, I believe it's not rocket-science to provide a more affordable approach for those who are comfortable enough to get rid of the ICE.
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Old 05-22-2020, 09:51 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Here in Alabama, this year the base tax charge on my BoltEV increased by $200.00! I was shocked / dismayed by that. Then, I found out from family that their hybrid Kia Kona (non-plug) went up $100.00.

Easy to see the tax desperation from our politicians. I think it is done on purpose so they can try to run the EV off the market. I think it is likely being pushed by the petroleum industry, new-car dealer lobby and possibly auto repair market interests.

As for road taxes, when we have a need for matching funds for federal government money for road maintenance / construction, they raise the sales tax, so that road infrastructure claim doesn't really set to well with me. All that said, I really, really like how my car drives and don't plan to go back to a gas burner as a daily driver.

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