Manual vs automatic What is desirable for MPG?

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by hayden55

I would imagine it is because they are noisy and clunky. I assume you could get the non straight cut gears to get rid of the hellacious supercharger whine they give off? But i wouldn't imagine people would put up with dog clutch engagement either

Lots of race cars don't have things like clutch springs. Could some springs make up for it?

The point wasn't that cars need to feel like a dragster, but that there are things that could be done to improve the manual transmission. Maybe put a torque converter on it? Maybe some other type of clutch for engaging gears?

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by MetroMPG

Here's a thread I started about how the EPA testing procedure handicaps manual transmissions:

>> Shift points: EPA testing of manual transmissions (why beating MT ratings is easier)

Your post was inconclusive of how EPA shift points are determined. If provided by the manufacturer, I would expect them to recommend points most favorable to achieving great fuel economy.

My anecdote comes from driving a 5-speed manual 1996 Subaru Legacy with 2.4L engine. I was averaging somewhere around 28 MPG. For the 1 month I owned a 2007 Subaru Outback 2.5L automatic, it only got 24 MPG, and that was with me trying pretty hard to get good fuel economy.

My Acura 6-speed manual gets fairly bad fuel economy on the freeway because the gearing is stupid compared to the automatic. I get better fuel economy in stop and go gridlock traffic by basically idling the engine, allowing a gap to open up when traffic speeds up, and the gap to close as traffic comes to a stop.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

I find it funny that we compare the modern automatic to the not-so-modern manual. Manual transmissions haven't changed much since synchromesh was introduced. Automatics are totaly differnt animals than what they used to be.

That's a good point.

If someone would make a modern manual transmission, (maybe an automatic with the option to shift into whatever gear the driver wants is a modern manual transmission) then maybe we could have a fair comparison.

IIRC in some previous-generation Mercedes-AMG model the torque converter of the automatic transmission was replaced by a multi-plate clutch in order to provide a more direct engagement. Not sure how it improved or decreased fuel-efficiency. But anyway, considering how the so-called automated-manual transmissions emerged as a lower-budget alternative to automatics, with the expectation of a better fuel-efficiency too, going the other way around would seem quite odd...

I think sequential shift dog clutch transmissions should be offered as modern manuals.

As motorcycles usually feature a sequential transmission, maybe it wouldn't be so pointless at all to have a similar setup on cars. IIRC some aftermarket suppliers have conversion kits for some mainstream transmission, including straight-cut gears with non-stock ratios, even though those are more focused for racing usage.

[oil pan 4]

Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr

Or even no transmission at all, relying on one of the electric motors to provide reversing, while also simulating the effect of a CVT.

Closest you are going to get to that is Hyundai took their conventional 5-speed auto and eliminated reverse, turned it into a 6-speed, eliminated the torque converter, uses the electric motor to reverse and for low speed operation.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

I find it funny that we compare the modern automatic to the not-so-modern manual. Manual transmissions haven't changed much since synchromesh was introduced. Automatics are totaly differnt animals than what they used to be.

If someone would make a modern manual transmission, (maybe an automatic with the option to shift into whatever gear the driver wants is a modern manual transmission) then maybe we could have a fair comparison.

I think sequential shift dog clutch transmissions should be offered as modern manuals.

Some automotive journalists have mentioned the following reasons automakers will never build what you desire:
* Automatic transmissions can satisfy EPA Clean Air Act standards/regulations- CAFE Standards, whereas manual transmissions cannot.
* Automatic transmission cars cost less to manufacture and return higher profits.
* There are more consumers who desire automatic transmissions than those who don't.
* A manual transmission can never be shifted as fast as an automatic, and will always waste some energy between shifts.
* Unless a manual transmission had 12-gears, it could never compete against a CVT transmission, and the 'tiny' ratio splits it provides.
* It is these small gear splits which help the engine remain in it's most favorable island of BSFC, consequently returning the highest thermal-mechanical efficiency, lowest fuel consumption, and lowest exhaust emissions.
* In two years, BEVs will cost the same as ICE automobiles, and since BEVs get 3.5X higher fuel economy than ICE, there will no longer be any rational reason to purchase or manufacture ICE vehicles, or transmissions as are currently manufactured.
* After the electrification of transport is complete, 'transmissions' will be known only as museum pieces.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by aerohead

Some automotive journalists have mentioned the following reasons automakers will never build what you desire:
* Automatic transmissions can satisfy EPA Clean Air Act standards/regulations- CAFE Standards, whereas manual transmissions cannot.
* Automatic transmission cars cost less to manufacture and return higher profits.
* There are more consumers who desire automatic transmissions than those who don't.
* A manual transmission can never be shifted as fast as an automatic, and will always waste some energy between shifts.
* Unless a manual transmission had 12-gears, it could never compete against a CVT transmission, and the 'tiny' ratio splits it provides.
* It is these small gear splits which help the engine remain in it's most favorable island of BSFC, consequently returning the highest thermal-mechanical efficiency, lowest fuel consumption, and lowest exhaust emissions.
* In two years, BEVs will cost the same as ICE automobiles, and since BEVs get 3.5X higher fuel economy than ICE, there will no longer be any rational reason to purchase or manufacture ICE vehicles, or transmissions as are currently manufactured.
* After the electrification of transport is complete, 'transmissions' will be known only as museum pieces.

True, but it also makes cars kind of boring (for me).

I don't know about BEVs costing the same as ICE automobiles in two years, but the future seems like we'll be driving around overpowered tablets in one form or another. Some want cars to be basically a subscription service.

There were a lot of cool cars back when I was a kid. None of the current grey CUV's and pickups that line every inch of every dealership appeal to me.

When I was a kid we had a 5 speed manual Ford Aerostar. Now that was cool IMO!

Sure, new cars a better. But I don't see what makes one different from another anymore.

There are electric cars with two speed automatics. I can only hope there'll be more reasons in the future to put transmissions in electric cars and that at least some of them will get manual transmissions.

[Ecky]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

True, but it also makes cars kind of boring (for me).

I don't know about BEVs costing the same as ICE automobiles in two years, but the future seems like we'll be driving around overpowered tablets in one form or another. Some want cars to be basically a subscription service.

There were a lot of cool cars back when I was a kid. None of the current grey CUV's and pickups that line every inch of every dealership appeal to me.

When I was a kid we had a 5 speed manual Ford Aerostar. Now that was cool IMO!

Sure, new cars a better. But I don't see what makes one different from another anymore.

There are electric cars with two speed automatics. I can only hope there'll be more reasons in the future to put transmissions in electric cars and that at least some of them will get manual transmissions.

I expect the direction we're headed is more toward the elimination of the personal vehicle. How much cheaper would an Uber be if it didn't have a driver? I expect within a decade or three, the only reason to own a car will be for entertainment purposes.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by Ecky

I expect the direction we're headed is more toward the elimination of the personal vehicle. How much cheaper would an Uber be if it didn't have a driver? I expect within a decade or three, the only reason to own a car will be for entertainment purposes.

That may be for the best. But it seems everything is going that way, as if we're becoming a society where you work and then get everything automatedly taken from your paycheck and given to you as a service.

It's kind of like the real estate market. Big corporations have been buying up many of the properties where I live and then turning around and renting them. Home ownership may end up being a thing of the past too.

Maybe I'm too old school, but it seems to take a lot of the pride out of things. I like driving a manual because I'm good at it. I took my Mom's Chevy Sonic to the city and back and got over 50mpg by hypermiling. I also used to play the piano, but I can't afford as big of a place anymore and had to give away my upright piano for free as no one would pay even $100 for it.

I was also kind of good at programming in Basic. Now what should I get into, or am I too old to find a hobby?

[hayden55]

* In two years, BEVs will cost the same as ICE automobiles, and since BEVs get 3.5X higher fuel economy than ICE, there will no longer be any rational reason to purchase or manufacture ICE vehicles, or transmissions as are currently manufactured.

You are crazy if you think this. Especially after the world wide trade fiasco we have had for the last two years. It still looks like it might be 10 years before BEVs compare equally to ICE vehicle on price to price basis without some dummy tax credit. (like hybrids do)

[Piotrsko]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

It's kind of like the real estate market. Big corporations have been buying up many of the properties where I live and then turning around and renting them. Home ownership may end up being a thing of the past too.

I was also kind of good at programming in Basic. Now what should I get into, or am I too old to find a hobby?

My kid just scraped together everything to afford a house because his rental landlord booted his butt out. Of course having the economy tank on housing here in Reno helped.

If you do basic you can program in Pascal or any of the "C" variants with just a syntax change, HTML is similar too, at least from all the classes I took for my minor.