Myth Busters SUCKS! (HHO mod, does it work?)

[justpassntime]

Guys messing with Hydrogen Boosters and thinking of messing with O2 and MAP sensors...you only need to mess with the Atmospheric or Barometric Pressure sensor. This sensor controls the fuel mix for the altitude for which the car is driven. Put a pot switch on it and turn it so the idle begins to lower (leaning the fuel mix). This way you wont have warning lights and other things to contend with when messing with the O2 and MAP sensors. Your car will just think it is being driven at higher altitude.

[RacerX]

[QUOTE=Concrete;38164]don't know which "Kansas" you want to answer... me or ihatejoefitz but I'm willing to comment:

I apologize I'meant ihatejoefitz, kansas was easyier to type

[silverknight]

Originally Posted by Concrete

All this to say - if you are changing fuel chemistry - your scangauge will probably miss lead you - untill you run the calculations on the tank by hand. (This is often when the experimenters stop posting as well.)

I do realize the scangauge will only only give me primitive readings. I want it mainly for the more "raw" data forms. I will be using gauges like ignition timing, GPM, and the custom O2 sensor readings. I will not be trusting the MPH numbers.

Originally Posted by justpassntime

Guys messing with Hydrogen Boosters and thinking of messing with O2 and MAP sensors...you only need to mess with the Atmospheric or Barometric Pressure sensor. This sensor controls the fuel mix for the altitude for which the car is driven. Put a pot switch on it and turn it so the idle begins to lower (leaning the fuel mix). This way you wont have warning lights and other things to contend with when messing with the O2 and MAP sensors. Your car will just think it is being driven at higher altitude.

I will look into that. Thanks.

[n8thegr8]

I have little respect for mythbusters, particularly with the hho mod they did it the worst way possible and didn't follow any of the MANY available free plans out there on the internet...BUT...onboard HHO generation is completely useless, for mpg gains anyway. By the laws of thermodynamics, you can't get more energy out of the combustion of the gas than you put in electrical power to split it. That means even if you got 1mpg increase, you'd be breaking the laws of physics. Even if your generator was 100% efficient (commercial grade electrolysis setups are at max 70% efficient, and those are quite costly) you'd just be breaking even. This is because for each amp you pull on your alternator, you're adding resistance and strain to the motor, requiring more fuel to generate the electricity to run your electrolyzer. So you see, unless your electrolyzer is 100% efficient, you'll actually be LOSING mpg.

Any gains reported can be attributed to 1. Increased awareness of driving habits, driving more conservatively, or 2. Because you need to lower your fuel input by spoofing the o2 sensor, this alone actually increases mpg whether you use hho or not. Don't feel bad though, I nearly fell for it as well, until I started remembering my chemistry and physics classes.

[JamesLaugesen]

Originally Posted by n8thegr8

I have little respect for mythbusters, particularly with the hho mod they did it the worst way possible and didn't follow any of the MANY available free plans out there on the internet...BUT...onboard HHO generation is completely useless, for mpg gains anyway. By the laws of thermodynamics, you can't get more energy out of the combustion of the gas than you put in electrical power to split it. That means even if you got 1mpg increase, you'd be breaking the laws of physics. Even if your generator was 100% efficient (commercial grade electrolysis setups are at max 70% efficient, and those are quite costly) you'd just be breaking even. This is because for each amp you pull on your alternator, you're adding resistance and strain to the motor, requiring more fuel to generate the electricity to run your electrolyzer. So you see, unless your electrolyzer is 100% efficient, you'll actually be LOSING mpg.

Any gains reported can be attributed to 1. Increased awareness of driving habits, driving more conservatively, or 2. Because you need to lower your fuel input by spoofing the o2 sensor, this alone actually increases mpg whether you use hho or not. Don't feel bad though, I nearly fell for it as well, until I started remembering my chemistry and physics classes.

Why are so many people so eager to use the knowledge they already have to prove something wrong?

Thermodynamics is the study of thermodynamics, chemistry the study of chemistry, neither is the study of internal combustion engines fueled by gasoline and oxyhydrogen.

We're all aware of the laws of physics and thermodynamics, I've _never_ seen an HHO advocate claim overunity, in fact, most repeatedly point out very clearly that they are not producing or claiming an overunity system.
Most only claim that they get better milage with their HHO setup running, which they overwise can not achieve without it... regardless of how or why, that's (generally) what is claimed.

There are plausable arguments to prove and disprove that claim.
The 'laws of thermodynamics' argument is perfectly valid, however, the 'imperfect system' argument is also perfectly valid until someone proves it wrong, in that;
HHO may allow more of the fuel to burn more efficiently, or better, or however we want to say it. That is not creating more energy, it's simply using more of the fuel, which otherwise was not burnt at all, or burnt at a less efficient time in the cycle.
It may be that the improvement is only caused by spoofing O2 sensors and leaning the mixture (although there are many, or even most, claims coming from carb'd cars with no modification)... one theory/claim is that HHO mixed with gasoline 'burns like hydrogen', with a faster flame front and effectively higher RON, thus allowing leaner mixtures without detonation. So yes, maybe the improvement is from lean mixtures, but those lean mixtures were still made possible by HHO.
Some claims are that engines running HHO run cooler, regardless of why they're running cooler, if that is true, that less heat means less energy being wasted, so where would that energy end up? Probably in the electrolyser hahah, but maybe some also makes it to the wheels.

Proving something wrong needs just as much dedication to proving it right.
You can't just say "Oh, well I am unable to do it, so it must not be possible.".

When an ICE is only about 30% efficienct, noone can say that more energy can not be scavanged from the system.

The weekend is close, get your glass jars and 10 amp fuses ready

[RacerX]

Originally Posted by JamesLaugesen

.

Proving something wrong needs just as much dedication to proving it right.
You can't just say "Oh, well I am unable to do it, so it must not be possible.".

When an ICE is only about 30% efficienct, noone can say that more energy can not be scavanged from the system.

The weekend is close, get your glass jars and 10 amp fuses ready

Just for the sake of argument. If you can power the genny with an auxilary battery and charge the battery with a solar panel.....

[JamesLaugesen]

Originally Posted by RacerX

Just for the sake of argument. If you can power the genny with an auxilary battery and charge the battery with a solar panel.....

That's brilliant, but I'd be worried about falling branches damaging the solar panel (lots of trees around here). I could mount the panel in the boot (trunk?), and wire the boot light to stay on to power the solar panel.

[Concrete]

James,
cannot wait to see your results
A person that knows their vehicle well, willing to try anything & an attitude!
be careful you might earn the title Myth Buster... Buster.

[n8thegr8]

Originally Posted by JamesLaugesen

HHO may allow more of the fuel to burn more efficiently, or better, or however we want to say it. That is not creating more energy, it's simply using more of the fuel, which otherwise was not burnt at all, or burnt at a less efficient time in the cycle.

I'm not saying hho is completely devoid of benefits. The thing is, even if it does make the gasoline burn more efficiently, you're still pulling down 30 amps on your alternator, which is going to decrease your gas mileage, so at most, you may break even when using a smack's, or get maybe 1mpg better, and for a $150 investment, it's gonna take a while for it to pay for itself, if it does work. What I would like to see are tests under controlled conditions on a dyno, and have it run with the sensor mods alone, and then coupled with the hho, and note the difference. HHO could quite well be a good solution if you could generate it on the grid, store it safely, and use it in a vehicle, but generating it onboard really doesn't make much sense with all the energy conversions. By all means, try it yourself, I'm just saying, my money's better spent saving up for an EV conversion.

[JamesLaugesen]

Originally Posted by n8thegr8

I'm not saying hho is completely devoid of benefits

Ok sorry yep I agree with you on all that, I didn't realise that you're referring to the 'bigger' claims like the smacks, with crazy high current and huge volumes of HHO.
And I apologise, I came off arrogant in my other post(s), just me getting a bit excited on the keyboard .

There is discussion in the australian car modding forums and such about roughly assembled hho setups with fairly low current and hho production, that's what I'm interested in trying. Very low percentage of hho, working on the claim that even a very small amount makes gasoline "burn like hydrogen".
I plan to power my test electrolyser (fused at 10amp) off the headlight circuit, so I can switch it on/off easily from inside the car and do multiple test runs with & without the generator running.

Hopefuly I can prove those claims false, then take it from there