The Old Empires' plan to cut out Tesla

[RedDevil]

Tesla revealed the V3 supercharger...
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-supe...-charge-speed/

V3 Superchargers will be able to charge twice as fast the current generation Supercharger with a maximum power output of 250 kW or 1,000 miles per hour. Additionally, Tesla owners using V3 Superchargers will no longer need to split power with neighboring vehicles, thereby substantially increasing the charge rate and reducing the overall amount of charging time by nearly half.

It has batteries?

V3 is a completely new architecture for Supercharging. A new 1MW power cabinet with a similar design to our utility-scale products supports peak rates of up to 250kW per car.

Getting warmed up...

Beginning this week, Tesla is rolling out a new feature called On-Route Battery Warmup. Now, whenever you navigate to a Supercharger station, your vehicle will intelligently heat the battery to ensure you arrive at the optimal temperature to charge, reducing average charge times for owners by 25%.

This combination of higher peak power with V3, dedicated vehicle power allocation across Supercharger sites, and On-Route Battery Warmup enables customers to charge in half the time and Tesla to serve more than twice the number of customers per hour.

and last but not least:

Additionally, we are also unlocking 145kW charge rates for our 12,000+ V2 Superchargers over the coming weeks.

So even the 'old' Superchargers get faster...!

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

If you don't like the power company then go off grid.
Don't like the oil companies, get an electric vehicle.

To buy enough battery capacity to charge let's say help charge 1 vehicle at 350kw would want a 700v system because this is a common inverter voltage. The bank would have to be made up of at least 97 12v batteries rated for 225 amp hours.
That many batteries could supply around 70kw of charging power. So you may want more like 2 or 3 of these banks per vehicle.
Each battery would weigh around 130lb, cost $400 each.
Each battery bank would cost around $40,000, contain around 10,000 pounds of lead and would need to be replaced around every 5 years. Just to charge 1 or 2 cars at 1 location. The battery houses would have to be climate controlled because that much charge and discharge would make a lot of heat.
So it's a bad idea and dumb idea.

I'm assuming none of you who think it's a good idea to "use a battery bank" even tried to figure how much battery it would take to supply even a portion of 350kw?

I suspect that these issues will be addressed at a utility level,rather than a homeowner level.
They already have 3-phase,and can dink around with their resistive,inductive,and reactive values to hit a soft-start,power factor of one, in all load scenarios,and lose the demand inrush cost penalty.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Don't know about power bills. That depends on whether the power company is able to pass on the cost to the owners of the chargers, or has to spread it out over the whole customer base.

The real problem is the technical one of system stability. Simplistically, everything in a power has to run at the same frequency (60 Hz in the US). The grid has inertia, both in the rotating mass of generators and the electrical equivalent, but this has limits. Suddenly dumping too much of a load at one point of the grid can drag down its frequency, causing it to destabilize and disconnect from the rest of the grid. Worst case, the instability can propagate, bringing down the whole grid.

Seems like a good way to deal with this would be to use flywheel storage, since that has built-in inertia, and doesn't need inverters to go from DC to AC, like batteries or capacitors.

During the heyday of flywheel R&D,it was found that a bearing failure could cause the flywheel to seize and uproot it's enclosure,taking off like a spastic missile,ricocheting off random surfaces until all the kinetic energy was spent.
Completely uncontrollable.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

When people say "we don't have the infrastructure for it" well with ludicrous speed chargers we dont.

At least tesla was smart enough to do some math and figure out that 120kw chargers could be integrated into a lot of places with existing service with out problem.

I'm assuming that there is still no mention of how much all this is going to cost?

What is the cost of a gas station with a supply line all the way to the Middle East?

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by ksa8907

Then the next question (which I really hope has been addressed) can the current infrastructure handle the increase in demand from widespread adoption of electric vehicles? Particularly, those that want to fast charge everytime they "fill up".

The system is already strained in the late afternoon on hot summer days when people get home and crank their a/c down, now charging their cars at the same time? I think the "connected" car is going to need to be present very early on to know when the system has capacity to charge it's battery.

The numbers for how many EVs can be handled was run years ago.I'll look for that ,unless another member has that in hand.Seems like a million EVs could be accommodated with zero changes.
As to charging,the scenario most mentioned,is charging while people sleep,during off-peak,and when utilities have to maintain expensive spinning reserve for a market that 'could' be there,but isn't.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

Where I work we use more power every day than a 2 story 2400sq.ft. house with a family of 5 uses in 12 years.
And they are not shy about spending several million dollars to lower the bills. 3 expansions to conserve natural gas, power but mostly to save water, all no less than 10 million each.
The 700hp ammonia compressor motors draw up to 1,100 amps of 480 on start up and they cycle on and off all the time.
500hp motors draw 500 to 700 amps depending on if they are driving compressors or turbo fans.
We don't use batteries.
Bank maintenance would cost more than it would save.

There are 'soft-start' ways to go,where that fractional power-factor penalty inrush can be dispensed with,and the motor will never pull more than it's nameplate current.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by oil pan 4

This post should be called:
"How charging your electric car will cost as much as filling up with gas"

Depending on the price of fuel,the electricity,on a 'gallon' equivalency basis,can be more expensive than gasoline.
The EV's parlor trick is,that its BSFC-e is around 1/3rd that of an ICE.
Take a 33.33 mpg ICE car and convert it to EV and you'll see 100-mpg-e.
And your net cost for fuel is lower.And you can be zero-carbon,depending.

[aerohead]

Originally Posted by Xist

Doesn't temperature in the shade depend on the size of the shade?

All temperature measurements are supposed to be made in the shade,so we'd need a context.

[Xist]

Originally Posted by aerohead

What is the cost of a gas station with a supply line all the way to the Middle East Canada?

Fixed!

[thingstodo]

Originally Posted by aerohead

There are 'soft-start' ways to go,where that fractional power-factor penalty inrush can be dispensed with,and the motor will never pull more than it's nameplate current.

The in-rush is lower when you do soft-start. But you need to over-size the motor since the torque delivered (compressors are under some load, although not 100% load, when they start) is 30 - 45% of rated torque on reduced-voltage start. I have never seen a soft-start that claims to limit current to nameplate values. Do you have a link?

We used VFDs to start and switch to across-the-line afterward, where the variable speed is not required.

500 HP is as high as we go with 600V equipment. At 460V, you would need to drop to maybe 400 HP. The currents get too high and it's too hard to cool the equipment with air only. There are water-cooled industrial VFDs but they are quite expensive. When looking at the whole system cost, they might be worth it though.

You'd likely have to bump up to a 2000V motor for the 500 - 1000 HP range to make the VFD reasonable to cool. But there are other issues with the 2000V VFDs. Nothing that money can't solve, but still kinda pricey. The VFDs don't use silicon any more ... or they chain different stages of silicon switching together. More hardware, more complexity, more cost.

Using VFDs gets you into harmonic issues though. Then you need to add harmonic filters at your 2KV or 15KV distribution level. And they are kinda pricey as well.