Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > Motorcycles / Scooters
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 06-19-2014, 06:15 AM   #81 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
sendler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Syracuse, NY USA
Posts: 2,935

Honda CBR250R FI Single - '11 Honda CBR250R
90 day: 105.14 mpg (US)

2001 Honda Insight stick - '01 Honda Insight manual
90 day: 60.68 mpg (US)

2009 Honda Fit auto - '09 Honda Fit Auto
90 day: 38.51 mpg (US)

PCX153 - '13 Honda PCX150
90 day: 104.48 mpg (US)

2015 Yamaha R3 - '15 Yamaha R3
90 day: 80.94 mpg (US)

Ninja650 - '19 Kawasaki Ninja 650
90 day: 72.57 mpg (US)
Thanks: 326
Thanked 1,315 Times in 968 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
and look into the feasability of fitting an Innova or similar fuel injector.
Fitting the Innova F.I. might not work well. Even if the Honda donor F.I. has an O2 sensor, the computer has a limited range to adapt the mixture. And only in a few global operational ranges. The mixtures for any given operating conditions of throttle angle, load, temp, and rpm ect. are mapped by wide band measurement at the factory for a particular engine design. The mixture is computed by inference of throttle angle, absolute manifold pressure, and intake air temp. There is no air mass sensor. Different displacement and cam tunings ect. will throw the mixture off of the map. If someone makes a wide band, logging, piggyback fuel controller for the Innova, it might be made to work really well. Offering you complete control over the final mixture for all conditions.

  Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sendler For This Useful Post:
Ironside (06-19-2014), jkv357 (06-20-2014)
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 06-19-2014, 06:36 PM   #82 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: West Wales,UK
Posts: 88
Thanks: 16
Thanked 57 Times in 24 Posts
renault-megane-dci wrote:-
Quote:
Ironside, I understand your bike redlines downhill somewhere around 75mph and probably around 9K and that you were usually around 65 which sounds very much like 8K so the engine might have been used in waste mode.
Have you been looking over my shoulder ?, spookily accurate. I'm not sure what you mean by 'waste mode'.

Quote:
My point is that streamlining works better if at all with a big gear reduction to cruise a little below peak torque with the throttle at 75% and basically no potential for extra acceleration unless dropping a gear.
I'm currently using the highest gearing I can find off the shelf, 14 x 36. I can't go smaller on the rear sprocket without going larger on the front because the chain has no clearance over the swing arm. The gearbox sprocket has un unusual design and without cutting and welding, is only available in 14t from the USA at $40 + shipping + import duty +VAT (ask me how I know). So I'm kinda stuck with it for the moment.

Peak tourqe for an unmodified engine is 5,500 rpm. which equates to 45 mph. and a quarter throttle. I should try a run at this speed to see what happens.

Although the fuel economy is important, the bike has to remain useable, having only 4 gears means that I dont have a spare gear to use as overdrive.
I've read somewhere that there is a vehicle called the TRX 125, which shares a similar motor but has 5 gears, if I could get one of those engines things might be different. Unfortunately it was never imported into the UK.

Quote:
Different displacement and cam tunings ect. will throw the mixture off of the map.
Thanks sendler, I don't think I'll bother with that then, time and money would be better spent on an AFR meter to set up the carb properly. Even at today's fuel prices, the payback time won't be too long.

Thanks for the feedback
Ironside.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 06:30 AM   #83 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East coast of Australia
Posts: 393

Yella Peril - '80 Mercedes 240D sedan
Thanks: 15
Thanked 41 Times in 17 Posts
Do you have any idea of the hp output is at around 5000 rpm Pete? That 45 mph is on you current bike as set up ?

Is there room for a larger than 14 tooth sprocket on the front ( an hour on the lathe would see the centre bored out of a larger one ready to weld on .... I know you've thought of that) but is there room?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
renault-megane-dci wrote:-


Have you been looking over my shoulder ?, spookily accurate. I'm not sure what you mean by 'waste mode'.



I'm currently using the highest gearing I can find off the shelf, 14 x 36. I can't go smaller on the rear sprocket without going larger on the front because the chain has no clearance over the swing arm. The gearbox sprocket has un unusual design and without cutting and welding, is only available in 14t from the USA at $40 + shipping + import duty +VAT (ask me how I know). So I'm kinda stuck with it for the moment.

Peak tourqe for an unmodified engine is 5,500 rpm. which equates to 45 mph. and a quarter throttle. I should try a run at this speed to see what happens.

Although the fuel economy is important, the bike has to remain useable, having only 4 gears means that I dont have a spare gear to use as overdrive.
I've read somewhere that there is a vehicle called the TRX 125, which shares a similar motor but has 5 gears, if I could get one of those engines things might be different. Unfortunately it was never imported into the UK.



Thanks sendler, I don't think I'll bother with that then, time and money would be better spent on an AFR meter to set up the carb properly. Even at today's fuel prices, the payback time won't be too long.

Thanks for the feedback
Ironside.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 01:38 PM   #84 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: France - Paris
Posts: 762

la_voiture_de_courses - '03 Renault Megane Estate
OldContinents
90 day: 44.34 mpg (US)

xiao lan - '01 Audi A2
90 day: 38.88 mpg (US)

Brit iron - '92 Mini Mini
90 day: 45.5 mpg (US)

Prius - '09 Toyota PRIUS Lounge
90 day: 47.37 mpg (US)

Beemer - '06 BMW F800 ST
90 day: 53.06 mpg (US)
Thanks: 188
Thanked 33 Times in 30 Posts
What about machining a standard used sprocket to become a sprocket holder ?
Obviously your rear sprocket needs to be spaced the same.

Best economy is around peak torque AND at 75% throttle.

I would not fear about that 75% throttle thing because you still have 25% if needs be.

Waste mode is a personal naming that I give but basically it's away from peak torque and incidentally bikes are usually set up on the rich side at either side of the rpm for safety reasons.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2014, 06:48 PM   #85 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East coast of Australia
Posts: 393

Yella Peril - '80 Mercedes 240D sedan
Thanks: 15
Thanked 41 Times in 17 Posts
I fed an approximation of Ironside's Honda specs into the calculator at the top of the page,
180 kg
rolling resistance .018
cd .4
frontal area 5.5 squ ft
engine efficiency .22

Assuming that is correct I get a requirement for 3.56 hp at 55 mph or 2.84 hp at 50 mph.
It sees logical to match the engine output to the aero power requirements.... so what rpm at 50 mph?
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2014, 03:02 AM   #86 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: France - Paris
Posts: 762

la_voiture_de_courses - '03 Renault Megane Estate
OldContinents
90 day: 44.34 mpg (US)

xiao lan - '01 Audi A2
90 day: 38.88 mpg (US)

Brit iron - '92 Mini Mini
90 day: 45.5 mpg (US)

Prius - '09 Toyota PRIUS Lounge
90 day: 47.37 mpg (US)

Beemer - '06 BMW F800 ST
90 day: 53.06 mpg (US)
Thanks: 188
Thanked 33 Times in 30 Posts
The calculator is not really bike friendly because we have a pretty lame drive train with higher than standard (read car) transmission loss.
Yes a brand new chain is good but is only brand new for 1/20 of its life.

Big digression to say that the setup you entered should hit the peak power of the engine at its top speed, namely 8,5 K at 70 mph.
As for its peak power, I don't know.
If it's a 90, 7hp sounds realistic.

If the stall point is not that, then some coefficient need to be tweaked.
Engine efficiency, drive train loss, Cd or S.

I would happily play with the calculator bit I'm on my phone ...
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2014, 06:16 AM   #87 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East coast of Australia
Posts: 393

Yella Peril - '80 Mercedes 240D sedan
Thanks: 15
Thanked 41 Times in 17 Posts
IIRC there is a real difference between O ring and non O ring chain but the main difference is a clean , preferably unworn chain . The old Honda chain guards made a BIG difference to chain condition and life.
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2014, 01:11 PM   #88 (permalink)
It's all about Diesel
 
cRiPpLe_rOoStEr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Porto Alegre, Rio Grande do Sul, Brazil
Posts: 11,297
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1,409 Times in 1,257 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
Although the fuel economy is important, the bike has to remain useable, having only 4 gears means that I dont have a spare gear to use as overdrive.
I've read somewhere that there is a vehicle called the TRX 125, which shares a similar motor but has 5 gears, if I could get one of those engines things might be different. Unfortunately it was never imported into the UK.
That was a 4-wheel ATV. Some had the Cub-type slant engine and others had a vertical-cylinder engine. Not sure if the slant-engine ones were ever available with a 5-speed transmission...
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2014, 02:19 PM   #89 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: France - Paris
Posts: 762

la_voiture_de_courses - '03 Renault Megane Estate
OldContinents
90 day: 44.34 mpg (US)

xiao lan - '01 Audi A2
90 day: 38.88 mpg (US)

Brit iron - '92 Mini Mini
90 day: 45.5 mpg (US)

Prius - '09 Toyota PRIUS Lounge
90 day: 47.37 mpg (US)

Beemer - '06 BMW F800 ST
90 day: 53.06 mpg (US)
Thanks: 188
Thanked 33 Times in 30 Posts
How is starting up with the 14x36 sprocket ?
Does it require a lot of clutch slip ?

The way I see it, the number of gears is of least importance than the ability to take off.

Is gear spacing already an issue ?
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2014, 02:37 AM   #90 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East coast of Australia
Posts: 393

Yella Peril - '80 Mercedes 240D sedan
Thanks: 15
Thanked 41 Times in 17 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cRiPpLe_rOoStEr View Post
That was a 4-wheel ATV. Some had the Cub-type slant engine and others had a vertical-cylinder engine. Not sure if the slant-engine ones were ever available with a 5-speed transmission...
Google finds a 125 cc Honda style tilted engine called a Loncin with a 5 speed box.

  Reply With Quote
Reply  Post New Thread


Thread Tools




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com