Go Back   EcoModder Forum > EcoModding > General Efficiency Discussion
Register Now
 Register Now
 

Reply  Post New Thread
 
Submit Tools LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 09-02-2009, 05:58 PM   #1 (permalink)
EcoModding Lurker
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 12

Chicago Suburbs Field Tech - '98 Honda Accord LX
Team Honda
90 day: 35.09 mpg (US)
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Should there be a new EPA rating City/Suburb/Highway

I drive primary in the Suburbs, it is way different then actually driving in a City, and doesn't have the benefits of the Highway.

City has traffic lights every block, its congested or gridlocked, speedlimits 25-35 and pedestrians.

Suburban is traffic lights every half mile or more, easy to predict the flow of traffic, speedlimits in the 40's

Just a thought, comments?

  Reply With Quote
Alt Today
Popular topics

Other popular topics in this forum...

   
Old 09-02-2009, 06:05 PM   #2 (permalink)
(:
 
Frank Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: up north
Posts: 12,762

Blue - '93 Ford Tempo
Last 3: 27.29 mpg (US)

F150 - '94 Ford F150 XLT 4x4
90 day: 18.5 mpg (US)

Sport Coupe - '92 Ford Tempo GL
Last 3: 69.62 mpg (US)

ShWing! - '82 honda gold wing Interstate
90 day: 33.65 mpg (US)

Moon Unit - '98 Mercury Sable LX Wagon
90 day: 21.24 mpg (US)
Thanks: 1,585
Thanked 3,555 Times in 2,218 Posts
It's complex enough already.

Cover the "typical" worst case and best case scenarios, add an "average" value, and let the viewer decide where they fall into that scheme.
__________________


  Reply With Quote
Old 09-02-2009, 06:39 PM   #3 (permalink)
EcoModding Apprentice
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Posts: 201
Thanks: 54
Thanked 30 Times in 18 Posts
I'd argue for getting rid of the combined value - it assumes everyone drives a certain city/highway mix.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2009, 02:23 AM   #4 (permalink)
Depends on the Day
 
RH77's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Kansas City Area
Posts: 1,761

Teggy - '98 Acura Integra LS
Sports Cars
90 day: 32.74 mpg (US)

IMA - '10 Honda Insight EX
Team Honda
90 day: 34.76 mpg (US)

Tessie - '06 Acura TSX Base
90 day: 28.2 mpg (US)
Thanks: 31
Thanked 41 Times in 35 Posts
First, the "City" cycle needs to be more aggressive. Compared to the European circuit that includes the intermediate "Suburb" or "Ex-Urban" cycle, our City value allows cruises that are too long in duration.

Several times I've wanted to test a vehicle for an FE report, and ended up getting stuck with city-only driving and crummy FE. Indy and San Antonio were prime examples. Try driving in stop-and-go situations, at slow speeds, repeatedly and get that number the EPA reports (EcoDriving techniques removed).

I agree that the the 3-Part result would really show people how much city driving hits FE, and how high-speed operation would perhaps hit FE vs a smooth, 45 mph parkway cruise in the 'burbs. The "new" EPA test (that replaces the decades-old version), is still old-school.

RH77
__________________
“If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research” ― Albert Einstein

_
_
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2009, 03:26 AM   #5 (permalink)
Pokémoderator
 
cfg83's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Southern California
Posts: 5,864

1999 Saturn SW2 - '99 Saturn SW2 Wagon
Team Saturn
90 day: 40.49 mpg (US)
Thanks: 439
Thanked 532 Times in 358 Posts
drewwitlin -

I would keep the current EPA standards, but issue reports of fixed-parameter steady-state test cycle results, like idle GPH (+-AC), MPG @ 35 MPH in gear X, MPG @ 55 MPH in top gear, etc, blah blah blah, ad nauseuam. This would allow people like us to predict the potentials of OEM drivetrains. Also that BSFC map. That should be in the report too.

CarloSW2
__________________

What's your EPA MPG? Go Here and find out!
American Solar Energy Society
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2009, 09:09 AM   #6 (permalink)
Eco Noob
 
Doofus McFancypants's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Tosev 3 - Atlanta GA
Posts: 293

Red Rover - '01 Nissan Altima GXE
90 day: 30.07 mpg (US)
Thanks: 5
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts
The issue with any static number (City / highway / other) is that the assumed driving schedule is confused with the numbers. Just look at all the car commercials touting the HIGHWAY mileage for the cars. Maybe the Chevy Traverse goes get better highway mileage than a CRV - but when is the last time someone spent MORE TIME on the highway then off the highway? I am sure it is in the single % of the total population.

Those who do not want to really understand will never GET IT.
But i do agree with Carlo - those that get it would greatly benifit from the DATA of speed / gear / consumption..

For the Informed consumer - the more data the better.
__________________
Steve - AKA Doofus McFancypants
------------------------------
"If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line - But it better work this time"

First Milestone passed - 30 MPG (city) 5/15/08
Best City Tank - 8/31/09- 34.3 MPG (EPA= 20)
Best Highway Tank - 5/20/09 - 36.5 MPG (EPA= 28)
------
In effort to drive less:
Miles NOT driven in 2009 = 648 (Work from home and Alt Transporatation)
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2009, 11:16 AM   #7 (permalink)
...beats walking...
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: .
Posts: 6,190
Thanks: 179
Thanked 1,525 Times in 1,126 Posts
...I suggest the '2/3's of Clint Eastwood' approach: just GOOD(highway) & BAD(city), the UGLY(in between) you can "guestimate" based upon your own situation.

...I do about 90% highway and 10% urban, but wife is 40% highway and 60% city...just depends upon who's driving.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2009, 01:31 PM   #8 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
wagonman76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Northwest Lower Michigan
Posts: 1,006

Red Car - '89 Chevrolet Celebrity CL 4 door
Team Chevy
90 day: 36.47 mpg (US)

Winter Wagon - '89 Pontiac 6000 LE Wagon
90 day: 28.26 mpg (US)
Thanks: 8
Thanked 17 Times in 16 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkp1187 View Post
I'd argue for getting rid of the combined value - it assumes everyone drives a certain city/highway mix.
I agree on that totally.

There are just way too many scenarios to try and add any new ratings. But I would like to know how they come up with the ratings. What is city? LA rush hour? Or something a lot better? How about highway? Long easy cruise at 55? Or a crowded freeway at 75?

At least that way you could get an idea as to how YOUR typical scenario compares with the ratings.

I am one who spends more time ON the highway than off. I would think that would be similar for most people who live in rural areas and have to drive forever to accomplish what needs to be done.
__________________

Winter daily driver, parked most days right now


Summer daily driver
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2009, 02:17 PM   #9 (permalink)
Batman Junior
 
MetroMPG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1000 Islands, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 22,530

Blackfly - '98 Geo Metro
Team Metro
Last 3: 70.09 mpg (US)

MPGiata - '90 Mazda Miata
90 day: 54.46 mpg (US)

Even Fancier Metro - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage top spec
90 day: 70.75 mpg (US)

Appliance car Mirage - '14 Mitsubishi Mirage ES (base)
90 day: 62.14 mpg (US)
Thanks: 4,078
Thanked 6,978 Times in 3,613 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by wagonman76 View Post
There are just way too many scenarios to try and add any new ratings.
Strongly disagree!!

While I think adding another "let's see if we can simulate another trip to grandma's house" kind of test would be pretty much useless, I'd very much like to see "pure" data as Carlos mentions.

EG. a chart of fuel economy plotted every X units from 50-120 km/h (30-70 mph) in top gear would be excellent for evaluating the efficiency performance of different vehicles.

Such as: http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...05-a-9841.html



Quote:
But I would like to know how they come up with the ratings. What is city? LA rush hour?
Here's how the EPA test cycles work:

CITY:



HWY:



They've twice added "fudge factors" to the actual numbers obtained from these test cycles. Also there are other, newer tests plus more detailed information about the above, here:

Fuel Economy Test Schedules
__________________
Project MPGiata! Mods for getting 50+ MPG from a 1990 Miata
Honda mods: Ecomodding my $800 Honda Fit 5-speed beater
Mitsu mods: 70 MPG in my ecomodded, dirt cheap, 3-cylinder Mirage.
Ecodriving test: Manual vs. automatic transmission MPG showdown



EcoModder
has launched a forum for the efficient new Mitsubishi Mirage
www.MetroMPG.com - fuel efficiency info for Geo Metro owners
www.ForkenSwift.com - electric car conversion on a beer budget
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-03-2009, 03:51 PM   #10 (permalink)
Master EcoModder
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 593
Thanks: 106
Thanked 114 Times in 72 Posts
An old guy I used to hang out with (inherited friend when Dad passed on) had a saying for every occasion.... and one of his favorites was "Nothing's ever been so simple that some fool couldn't make it more complicated."

The two-figure, "city/highway" is great. it shows best typical and worst typical in a way that everyone can relate to, and everyone can decide where they fit on a one dimensional figure like that.

It's kinda like how engines are rated as horsepower and torque... we know that horsepower IS torque with the factor of time included.. but by seeing both figures we can get an idea - RAPIDLY - in our head of how the engine behaves. Low HP number and high torque number? It's a stump puller... high HP and low torque? Zippy. Instant understanding.

That is what I think is valuable about the city/highway two-measurement system. The actual numbers don't matter because everyone drives differently from each other - but when you see the two numbers you instantly understand what they mean to you.

__________________
Work From Home mod has saved more fuel than everything else put together.
  Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to shovel For This Useful Post:
Frank Lee (09-03-2009)
Reply  Post New Thread


Tags
city, driving, highway, suburban, traffic



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Combined EPA Rating ... cheaters up in here or just a big misunderstanding?? Markmysite Hypermiling / EcoDriver's Ed 30 10-15-2009 03:00 PM
EPA rating differences between years for same car? Daox General Efficiency Discussion 6 04-03-2009 10:11 AM
Garage % Over EPA - Question Matt Herring Forum News & Feedback 6 03-24-2009 11:39 PM
Is VW lying to the EPA? Why does Jetta sedan / wagon have identical MPG ratings? MetroMPG General Efficiency Discussion 16 11-07-2008 05:39 PM
Need help for EPA rating to correctly register my megane groar Hypermiling / EcoDriver's Ed 4 06-30-2008 01:30 PM



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.5.2
All content copyright EcoModder.com