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Old 11-03-2018, 01:13 AM   #731 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
I was actually trying to promote electric vehicles and dispel ridiculous rumors and notions put forth by the pickup truck driving wife beater wearing, may or may not have graduated high school, toothless people who likely have never actually seen an electric car in person.
My bad.
Yeah, it's like the other old saw about trying to teach a pig to sing: just wastes your time and annoys the pig :-)

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Old 11-03-2018, 04:08 AM   #732 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Tele man View Post
Co$t reduction of batteries as a result of re-cycling Lithium rather than having to mine it.
Where are all these old batteries coming from?
I thought tesla made it so their batteries needed something like 1/3 the cobalt or current batteries and 1/10 the cobalt of older generations of lithium nickel manganese cobalt batteries.
Supposedly really the only incentive to recycle lithium batteries was to get the cobalt.
When something like a leaf battery gets turned in for its core deposit they go to a cell swapper where all the cells can be tested and bad ones replaced, then the battery gets sold as "reconditioned".

But the pictures I have seen of the tesla battery that's not really an option.
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Old 11-03-2018, 01:38 PM   #733 (permalink)
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Lithium/Lead

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Why?
One of their biggest selling points is that they contain no toxic heavy metals.
As far as I know at the very least most states have laws requiring lead acid batteries be recycled.
The reason they are recycled because they are around 90% by weight toxic heavy metal. It is the best and worst things about them.
Forcing the UNeconomic recycling of lithium batteries will just make them more expensive.
Years ago,as Lithium-ion was emerging,the talk was,that Lithium is readily recyclable,will have enough value as scrap,to incentivize recycling,and would be recycled as Neil mentioned,as an efficiency measure.
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Lead peroxide,PbSO4,which comprises the plate material in a lead-acid battery is a neurotoxin,and if released into an environment with low enough pH,will leach out,polluting ground water/aquifers.
You wouldn't want children chewing on it,or breathing any dust from it,so it's good to control it,and best to recycle it,as long as the smelter doesn't release airborne material,and I'd bet that Federal oversight,would prevent that from becoming a reality.
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Old 11-03-2018, 02:11 PM   #734 (permalink)
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Last time I checked the US recycles lead batteries and we do not even mine our own lead any more.
Any fresh lead is being mined is just a byproduct of copper or silver extraction.
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Old 11-03-2018, 03:09 PM   #735 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thingstodo
I wouldn't say that they 'dart out'. The videos I have seen (dashcam) and my limited (thankfully!) personal experience is that they decide where they want to go and then go there at the pace they decided to go. A noisy, well-lit vehicle does not appear to dissuade them much.
"Like a deer in the headlights" is an expression for a reason. I watched a fawn on a hillside at Heceta Head, frozen for hours because it realized there were people around.
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Old 11-03-2018, 03:44 PM   #736 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSH View Post
You're right. I must have been looking at the Model S

From the NHTSA: "Frontal crash rating results can only be compared to other vehicles in the same class and whose weight is plus or minus 250 pounds of the vehicle being rated. "
I'm guessing Tesla's reference to the 3 was excluding the frontal crash test and including the side impactor, side pole, and rollover if the frontal results can't be compared.

Quote:
Side crash rating results can be compared across all classes because all vehicles are hit with the same force by the same moving barrier or pole.

Rollover ratings can also be compared across all classes. Frontal crash rating results can only be compared to other vehicles in the same class and whose weight is plus or minus 250 pounds of the vehicle being rated. This is because a frontal crash rating into a fixed barrier represents a crash between two vehicles of the same weight.
For instance, here's the 3's results for the side impactor test.

https://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/databa...aspx?LJC=10384

The Head Injury Criterion (HIC) for the driver (male 50-percentile weight) is crazy low at 67.

The newest Lexus ES-350 is at 171 for the driver. The passenger (female 5-percentile weight) ratings are close though at 206 versus 229.

https://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/databa....aspx?LJC=9488

Even with the 3 not weighing quite as much as something like the RX-350, the 3 is still likely safer for a driver in the frontal test because the difference in curb weights is ~400lbs (3814lbs for the 3 versus 4222lbs for the RX-350) and the difference in driver HIC is substantial at 81 for the 3 compared to 265 for the RX-350. The RX-350 is better for the passenger at 178 compared to 235 for the 3.

https://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/databa...aspx?LJC=10383
https://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/databa...aspx?LJC=10383

The 3's not the best tested car in every category, and the frontal test results can't be compared 1:1 outside of it's weight class, but after looking at some other cars my sense is that the 3 is likely the safest car for the driver overall, even taking into account weight differences. It's among the best for the passenger, but there are better, mostly SUVs I imagine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Where are all these old batteries coming from?
I thought tesla made it so their batteries needed something like 1/3 the cobalt or current batteries and 1/10 the cobalt of older generations of lithium nickel manganese cobalt batteries.
Supposedly really the only incentive to recycle lithium batteries was to get the cobalt.
When something like a leaf battery gets turned in for its core deposit they go to a cell swapper where all the cells can be tested and bad ones replaced, then the battery gets sold as "reconditioned".

But the pictures I have seen of the tesla battery that's not really an option.
AFAIK the same thing applies for a Tesla, but instead of swapping out individual prismatic batteries, Tesla swaps out bricks and each brick has however many 18650 or 2270 cylindrical cells. If someone was really determined, they may be able to replace individual defective 18650/2270 cells, but I doubt most people would for the same reason that most people don't bother trying to replace the bad individual D-cells in older Honda hybrid packs.
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Old 11-03-2018, 06:27 PM   #737 (permalink)
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I like large prismatics.
That's how most of my LiFePO4 batteries are made.
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Old 11-04-2018, 02:28 AM   #738 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aerohead View Post
Lead peroxide,PbSO4
PbO2; PbSO4 is lead sulfate and is the byproduct of the lead peroxide's reaction with sulfuric acid.
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:48 AM   #739 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piotrsko View Post
What else would you expect from people who don't know how to design and build mass produced cars?
Still managed to produce (well, sort of ...) a car that does very well in crash testing - and actual crashes.
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Old 11-04-2018, 10:54 AM   #740 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roflwaffle View Post
I'm guessing Tesla's reference to the 3 was excluding the frontal crash test and including the side impactor, side pole, and rollover if the frontal results can't be compared..
Why would you think Musk is excluding frontal crash testing? He has a history of misrepresenting NHTSA test results. He claimed the Model S got a 5.4 star rating.

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