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Old 10-06-2010, 02:33 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by robertwb70 View Post
If they took the persons license how would they get to work to make more money so they could pay their next fine??
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:40 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Clev View Post
My problem is that the law singles out mobile phones,
Mobiles were singled out especially because people whinged that it is not dangerous. The muppets at TTAC still moan that they can use a hand held mobile perfectly safely whilst driving but they are total wankers. There I said it, and will take no arguments on it.

But the law here is quite broad. For example one lady got done for eating an apple whilst driving.

Yeah I know, you think this is extreme but you have to remember that a lot of cars in the UK do not have auto trans. A lot still don't even have PAS so not using both hands is quite a risk really.

Yet this morning I passed a traffic jam caused by a crash on the A702 bypass. And out of the cars just getting to the crash I estimate 2/3 had drivers on the handheld phone - yeah, you are coming up to a cop standing in the road - good idea. Most were orange women too. Fake tan has a lot to answer for.

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Originally Posted by robertwb70 View Post
Reminds me of the laws that make committing a crime with a gun a crime...

The real reason all penalties in this country aren't stricter is that the lawmakers aren't out to prevent ANY behavior they're out to monetize ALL behavior, which is an unfortunate consequence of capitalist society, everything is about MONEY.

If they took the persons license how would they get to work to make more money so they could pay their next fine??
I'm not clear on the point about guns, I am not a fan of them at all but I'm not going to preach about how I like living in a country where they can't be got hold of easily, and I like it that way tbh. To each his/her own.

On your point about people paying the fines, well yeah - that is where the system sometimes fails. For example if you don't have car tax the DVLA (uk.gov tax people) can clamp (boot) your car, tow it away and crush it unless you pay the tax and a fine. Except the tax is sometimes several times the value of the car so people just say f**k it and let them go.

Or they learn how to pick locks and remove the boot - which is legal as long as you don't damage it. One bloke removed the boot by picking the lock and then used it to lock the gates to his local DVLA yard, he is on Youtube somewhere.
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Old 10-06-2010, 04:06 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
Mobiles were singled out especially because people whinged that it is not dangerous. The muppets at TTAC still moan that they can use a hand held mobile perfectly safely whilst driving but they are total wankers. There I said it, and will take no arguments on it.
So what you're saying is that it's your opinion. Got it.

I had put together statistics on distracted driving from a couple of sources for a Fark flamewar once. I wish I had kept that analysis, because it was telling.

For instance, among the causes of distracted driving, mobile phone use was in the single digit percentages, right around the other things I mentioned--talking to a passenger, adjusting the radio, sudden movement of an object in the car, drinking, eating, reading, personal grooming, etc. All of those caused accidents at about the same rate. Yet, none of those things is specifically banned in the U.S., even though they were as likely, or even more likely, to cause an accident.

Quote:
But the law here is quite broad. For example one lady got done for eating an apple whilst driving.
I found that on the web, along with drivers getting nailed for eating ice cream, drinking water, etc. I don't know if that's specifically banned in the UK, or if they were caught because they were driving erratically. (How does a police helicopter spot somebody eating an apple if it first doesn't see them driving erratically?) Either way, if all of those other things are banned (including radios, which were very close to mobile phone in danger, and passengers, which are far more dangerous), then a mobile ban also makes sense. Obviously that's not the case.

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Yeah I know, you think this is extreme but you have to remember that a lot of cars in the UK do not have auto trans. A lot still don't even have PAS so not using both hands is quite a risk really.
I drive a stick, so I use a Bluetooth headset. However, to use your logic, they should ban manual transmissions, since you have to take a hand off the wheel (and a foot off the brake!) to shift.

Quote:
Yet this morning I passed a traffic jam caused by a crash on the A702 bypass. And out of the cars just getting to the crash I estimate 2/3 had drivers on the handheld phone - yeah, you are coming up to a cop standing in the road - good idea. Most were orange women too. Fake tan has a lot to answer for.
And the other third had turned off their radios, told their passengers to shut up and put down the bickies too, I'll bet.

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I'm not clear on the point about guns, I am not a fan of them at all but I'm not going to preach about how I like living in a country where they can't be got hold of easily, and I like it that way tbh. To each his/her own.
Has nothing to do with guns specifically. The point of the comment is that there are laws that make penalties for murder higher if a gun is used. It basically puts the focus on the gun, rather than the fact that somebody was murdered. Mobile phones are specifically targeted in the same way, even though they are but a tiny portion of accidents.

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Or they learn how to pick locks and remove the boot - which is legal as long as you don't damage it. One bloke removed the boot by picking the lock and then used it to lock the gates to his local DVLA yard, he is on Youtube somewhere.
That's awesome. I had no idea you could legally pick the lock.
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Old 10-06-2010, 04:23 PM   #34 (permalink)
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...it's gotta be both "...breaking and entering..."
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Old 10-06-2010, 05:31 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clev View Post
So what you're saying is that it's your opinion. Got it.
Good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clev View Post
I had put together statistics on distracted driving from a couple of sources for a Fark flamewar once....
Okay. Flame war. Got it. er, I don't want one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clev View Post
For instance, among the causes of distracted driving, mobile phone use was in the single digit percentages, right around the other things I mentioned--talking to a passenger, adjusting the radio, sudden movement of an object in the car, drinking, eating, reading, personal grooming, etc. All of those caused accidents at about the same rate. Yet, none of those things is specifically banned in the U.S., even though they were as likely, or even more likely, to cause an accident.

I found that on the web....
Why the feck (excuse me ) should every single stupid thing people do behind the wheel be specifically outlawed. Thankfully we have a reasonable prescribed crime which is

'Driving without due care and attention'

It has been around for ages. Seems pretty fair to me. If an evidence exists you were (for example) swerving and you were on the phone / chatting / eating / picking fluff out of navel / inventing fusion power instead of driving then this is the law for it. It is then up to the court to decide if you are guilty or not. You can argue stats there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clev View Post
I drive a stick, so I use a Bluetooth headset. However, to use your logic, they should ban manual transmissions, since you have to take a hand off the wheel (and a foot off the brake!) to shift.

And the other third had turned off their radios, told their passengers to shut up and put down the bickies too, I'll bet.
I meant 2 hands to drive including gears. Joke here in the UK - if you are steering with one and eating an apple with another then where is your third for shifting etc - or are you a clever dick ?

No honest, I think we are on the same side - distracting stuff is bad. Take steps to avoid it. I have hands free too. I have a manual gearbox. I eat when parked. etc etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clev View Post
Has nothing to do with guns specifically. The point of the comment is that there are laws that make penalties for murder higher if a gun is used. It basically puts the focus on the gun, rather than the fact that somebody was murdered. Mobile phones are specifically targeted in the same way, even though they are but a tiny portion of accidents.
OK I understand this more now. I did tap my views and thats fine, I am not here to preach as I tapped - I get the point. Accepted and valued in my view.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Clev View Post
That's awesome. I had no idea you could legally pick the lock.
Yep. UK law has lots of tricky twists and turns. If you are clamped generally and can remove it without damage to the clamp then you are free. Clamping (except the DVLA) is illegal in Scotland which although we are part of the UK has its own legal system. However even the DVLA clamp can be removed without charge if you don't damage it.
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:19 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arragonis View Post
Why the feck...
I'll just interject here on a slightly unrelated topic: I love Father Ted.

Quote:
...should every single stupid thing people do behind the wheel be specifically outlawed. Thankfully we have a reasonable prescribed crime which is

'Driving without due care and attention'

It has been around for ages. Seems pretty fair to me. If an evidence exists you were (for example) swerving and you were on the phone / chatting / eating / picking fluff out of navel / inventing fusion power instead of driving then this is the law for it. It is then up to the court to decide if you are guilty or not. You can argue stats there.
And yet you also specifically have a mobile ban that is completely separate. In California, if you're so much as picking up a phone to move it from the seat to the cupholder, it's a ticket. THAT'S my problem with the mobile ban. The problem is covered under existing reckless driving laws in the U.S. as well, but that wasn't good enough for the whiner (whinger?) crowd, so they made an additional law so that so much as glancing at a phone to see who is calling gets you a ticket.

Quote:
I meant 2 hands to drive including gears. Joke here in the UK - if you are steering with one and eating an apple with another then where is your third for shifting etc - or are you a clever dick ?
LOL. That's why we have adjustable columns, to make steering with the knees more comfortable.

I tend to leave my eating for when I'm stopped, but there's enough contiguous nonstop freeway in California that one can generally leave the car in top gear long enough to eat or drink something--provided that something isn't ice cream or scalding hot tea.

In California, you can drive with a mobile if you use a headset, but if your fingers so much as touch the phone itself, it's a ticket. Thus, I have to hold the phone below the window line while dialing or ending a call, increasing the risk slightly. (Before, it was on a mount on the dashboard so my eyes were much closer to the road, but the law, as the thread topic suggests, has made things slightly more dangerous out there.)
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Old 10-06-2010, 06:32 PM   #37 (permalink)
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My own informal surveys show cell use while driving DEEP into the double digits. Once upon a time I did try to find an "official" stat on cell use while driving but didn't succeed.
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Old 10-06-2010, 07:11 PM   #38 (permalink)
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My own informal surveys show cell use while driving DEEP into the double digits. Once upon a time I did try to find an "official" stat on cell use while driving but didn't succeed.
I'm referring to distracted-driving accidents caused by cell phones.
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Old 10-07-2010, 01:22 AM   #39 (permalink)
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It is because you government does not exist to serve society, society exists to serve government now.
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Old 10-07-2010, 05:08 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Clev View Post
And yet you also specifically have a mobile ban that is completely separate. In California, if you're so much as picking up a phone to move it from the seat to the cupholder, it's a ticket. THAT'S my problem with the mobile ban. The problem is covered under existing reckless driving laws in the U.S. as well, but that wasn't good enough for the whiner (whinger?) crowd, so they made an additional law so that so much as glancing at a phone to see who is calling gets you a ticket.
It was made a specific ban here was for 2 reasons.

Firstly the message wasn't getting through, people would trawl statistics etc. and believe they had the driving skills of Tony Pond and that the ban shouldn't apply to them.

Secondly, and more tellingly, it allowed the Police to deal with it as a fixed penalty - basically they issue a ticket there and then which you can challenge later rather than having to take people through the courts as they did with Driving Without Due Care and Attention.

One interesting piece of recent research found that the old excuse of a passenger having a conversation with the driver being just as bad was flawed. Your passenger is in the car with you and experiences the same challenges - when you go quiet so do they, but the person on the other end of the phone doesn't.

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It is because you government does not exist to serve society, society exists to serve government now.
It has been this way since WW2, its just nobody noticed until more recently.

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