"The Volt" May BE SCRAPPED!- NEVER BUILT!!

[Christ]

Originally Posted by theunchosen

Keeping cash out of the hands of jihadists is not something realistically that we can even curb. The number of people trying to pour upwards into the Golden billion is so large that if we stop buying the oil it will just drop oil prices elsewhere by ten cents. But we aren't even talking about stopping buying it... we're just talking about curbing it.

I understand the principle, but I'm just pointing out its less than a penny on the dollar if every single American bought a hybrid.

Also in the cash flow chain back to those jihadists sits the petrol industry, one of the largest developers of "green" tech out there. BP put more money into renewables last year than the US government. Jihadist cash flow won't change because we buy hybrids, but the people trying to provide cheap solar energy, wind energy and other diverse sources will suffer massive cut backs...

Nice principle, terrible implementation.

The Volt is not really too much cheaper than the Tesla family, for US taxpayers. auto bailouts and loans per taxpayer put the cost of every single car up.

The Volt is just a marketing scam. They got people reinvested in the bowtie with the volt and then sold them chargers, challengers, avengers and other cars that look pretty.

And, on a lighter note, why is GM selling Chrysler's merchandise? *facepalm* Oh, I get it, they're "giving back..." (I jest, of course.)

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Jammer

If people VOTE based on their billfold, then I feel they most certainly BUY based on their wallets.

The problem there is that they obviously don't. Leaving politics out and sticking strictly to cars, have you priced SUVs or big pickups, especially once you start adding options? They're right up there in Volt territory, sometimes - Hummer, Escalade, &c - well beyond. Are the people who buy these buying with their wallets? Or with something on the other side of their trousers?

I do not believe their are enough "tree-huggers" (no offense, I mean that in a good way!!) to make diddly squat difference in The Volt Sales.

Just like there weren't enough to mean squat in Prius sales, eh?

Personally, the average good people of these foothills of East Kentucky that had $40,000 to spend in cash or credit for a car, is much more likely to put in on a Double-Wide Trailer!!

You need to remember, though, that East Kentucky is not the US.

[pgfpro]

Originally Posted by Christ

Thereifixedit!

Sad but so very true.

The great USA!!! "Consume everything build nothing"

[cfg83]

jamesqf -

Originally Posted by jamesqf

The problem there is that they obviously don't. Leaving politics out and sticking strictly to cars, have you priced SUVs or big pickups, especially once you start adding options? They're right up there in Volt territory, sometimes - Hummer, Escalade, &c - well beyond. Are the people who buy these buying with their wallets? Or with something on the other side of their trousers?

...

That's what I was thinking. Luxury priced cars can easily hit this price.

I hate the thought of going over $20K for a new car, but once you get out of the compact car category, it's pretty normal these days.

CarloSW2

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

The problem there is that they obviously don't. Leaving politics out and sticking strictly to cars, have you priced SUVs or big pickups, especially once you start adding options? They're right up there in Volt territory, sometimes - Hummer, Escalade, &c - well beyond. Are the people who buy these buying with their wallets? Or with something on the other side of their trousers?

The word "obviously" in the context you used it in is NOT obvious to me. I disagree with your logic. I also know of only a few people that buy very many options on a car because they are so expensive. On my car I got a spare tire/jack and an ashtray (which I did not need, it was already ordered with it). I have crank windows, no power door locks, bought my rubber mats from an auto store, and saved a few thousand $$ by doing so. I get out and around, I do drive out of this state sometimes, and I sure do not see many Hummers parked in the employee parking lot of any business. Maybe you live near more rich people than I do, because
I just do not see such expensive cars and tucks on the roads in very many numbers, in fact one of the most common things on 4 wheels I see is The Chevy Cobalt, yet to hear Chevy tell the story those car sales are down too- ' sure can not tell it but looking at the roads! Also Chevy is on record for NOT selling nearly as many Escalades as they had first hoped, by their count the truck was not the smashing success they had hoped for (although I know a guy who differs because he owns one)It is by far NOT obvious and I feel even stronger about this analogy today. We should likely agree to disagree. Those SUVs are often sold to drivers as their 2nd vehicle, not everyone drives a hummer to their workplace, just like my 1985 Pontiac Fiero, some cars/trucks were bought or meant as a 2nd vehicle, not their primary one. The Volt is already being marketed as a PRIMARY USE VEHICLE, and their comes the COST OF FUEL being drawn directly into the purchase for MOST drivers. However, my father makes a good point for you because he has a Cadillac and an Escalade. He is up in years and he feels his Cadillac is his primary car because it gets the best MPG. By buying these cars and trucks he IS living within his means, but I feel he is the exception, most families can not afford a $40,000 car when many have less invested in their home.

Just like there weren't enough to mean squat in Prius sales, eh?

Your comparing apples to oranges here. The first 2 years that car did not turn a profit, or so it is said. Next if you compare the PRICE of a stripped down Prius with what is only the RUMOR of The Volt's 40K price (it could be higher, especially with options!) AND the Prius was for sale in 2008 when $4.20 gas was a reality for many, well lets just say the apples go in the red box and the oranges go in the yellow box, please do not confuse them.

You need to remember, though, that East Kentucky is not the US.

Without a smiley face I take offense to that remark. I figure where YOU live is not the US. None of us have enough eyes to see all the streets at one time, it's normal to base it on what we see, no what were told.

Safe to say we disagree on every point. 'Nothing personal.

[cfg83]

Jammer -

Originally Posted by Jammer

Good point(s): From my perspective, I was a young kid when Saturn was started and my father along with many other UAW workers were asked to come on down south to work. But most of the workers quickly figured out they had a much better deal staying right where they were. I think part of the problem was they should of got a better deal with the union that might would allowed fresh workers from the street to of been hired in- because the way they did it they tried building a revolutionary plant but they staffed it with the same UAW workers they had back in Michigan... I suspect this might of stiffed some of their creativity in building a newly designed car. It was supposed to of been a car built like the plants in Japan built cars, but I sense it never really fully achieved it's goals.

There are a lot of articles on why Saturn failed :

SaturnFans.com | The Saturn Authority for Saturn Enthusiasts.

My opinion is that the initial product "succeeded" because it sold cars to the demographic that GM was losing (people like me that previously owned a CRX), but the retirement of GM CEO Roger Smith (I know, I know, that Roger Smith) meant that Saturn lost it's "patron" within GM and henceforth withered on the vine. The only "real" Saturn was the original S-Series. That design was given two plastic facelifts, incremental drivetrain improvements, and ended up lasting 12 years. A single platform lasting 12 years is a long time in the car industry. I would buy an S-Series tomorrow if they were still building them. All other Saturn models were increasing compromises with GM, and Saturn ceased to exist as an independent entity in the early 2000's, which means that it had already died a "quiet" death behind closed doors, unlike Oldsmobile.

Regarding the other stuff you have posted, I'm in agreement with a lot of what you say. I think that puts us in the minority. It's not just the universal health care issue that's in the news right now, it's the free trade mantra. Most of the other "competing" countries are either protectionist or can undercut our wages to the point where it doesn't matter how many hours we work. Japan and China *protect* and nourish their industries.

We live in an era where the next generation of Americans will have it (a whole lot?) worse than the previous generation. The problem is, we as Americans inherited a world view that requires resources to be cheap and abundant. That POV is not sustainable. This is what I meant in another thread when I said a "false reality". You can see cheap gas at the station now, but it's a chimera if we are being insulated from the real cost of that gas.

I actually wouldn't mind living in a 2nd world country (if that definition means anything anymore). I don't want to live in the 3rd world, but I feel like we are watching it happen right here right now. In time I see the USA stratifying into what Latin America looks like, 5% super rich, 15% technocrats to assist the super rich, and 80% dirt poor. At that point we'll have the dirt cheap labor to compete with China. Our lives won't get better, but Wall Street will be happy, and isn't that the only thing that matters anyway, ?


CarloSW2

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by cfg83

Jammer -



There are a lot of articles on why Saturn failed :

SaturnFans.com | The Saturn Authority for Saturn Enthusiasts.

My opinion is that the initial product "succeeded" because it sold cars to the demographic that GM was losing (people like me that previously owned a CRX), but the retirement of GM CEO Roger Smith (I know, I know, that Roger Smith) meant that Saturn lost it's "patron" within GM and henceforth withered on the vine. The only "real" Saturn was the original S-Series. That design was given two plastic facelifts, incremental drivetrain improvements, and ended up lasting 12 years. A single platform lasting 12 years is a long time in the car industry. I would buy an S-Series tomorrow if they were still building them. All other Saturn models were increasing compromises with GM, and Saturn ceased to exist as an independent entity in the early 2000's, which means that it had already died a "quiet" death behind closed doors, unlike Oldsmobile.

Regarding the other stuff you have posted, I'm in agreement with a lot of what you say. I think that puts us in the minority. It's not just the universal health care issue that's in the news right now, it's the free trade mantra. Most of the other "competing" countries are either protectionist or can undercut our wages to the point where it doesn't matter how many hours we work. Japan and China *protect* and nourish their industries.

We live in an era where the next generation of Americans will have it (a whole lot?) worse than the previous generation. The problem is, we as Americans inherited a world view that requires resources to be cheap and abundant. That POV is not sustainable. This is what I meant in another thread when I said a "false reality". You can see cheap gas at the station now, but it's a chimera if we are being insulated from the real cost of that gas.

I actually wouldn't mind living in a 2nd world country (if that definition means anything anymore). I don't want to live in the 3rd world, but I feel like we are watching it happen right here right now. In time I see the USA stratifying into what Latin America looks like, 5% super rich, 15% technocrats to assist the super rich, and 80% dirt poor. At that point we'll have the dirt cheap labor to compete with China. Our lives won't get better, but Wall Street will be happy, and isn't that the only thing that matters anyway, ?


CarloSW2

You know more about the Saturn project than I do. And I must tell you that was one of the best posts I have read on this site. As you say, we may be the minority, but I certainly agree with your outlook for America. Of course nobody WANTS to be negative, but when things keep going the same direction and it seems nobody recognizes the problem, nor makes an effort to stop it, then the end results can only be one thing. 80% dirt poor sounds about right to me, if we are even that lucky. This scenario is part of my reasoning that the Chevy Volt might not sale so well. It may very well be too expensive for too many families.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I also know of only a few people that buy very many options on a car because they are so expensive.

Well, we obviously know a different set of people, or in my case see them driving on the local roads, because around here you do see a lot of them. Even leaving out the Hummers & Escalades, around here the Ford F-350 (4WD, of course) is pretty common, especially among construction workers & similar. Here's a link to MSRP: Ford F-350 cars - New Ford F-350 car models - Yahoo! Autos

...in fact one of the most common things on 4 wheels I see is The Chevy Cobalt, yet to hear Chevy tell the story those car sales are down too- ' sure can not tell it but looking at the roads!

Must be those regional differences again. I don't think I've ever seen a Cobalt, and not many Chevy/Ford/Chrysler cars at all (other than the PT Cruiser). Around here, people who buy Detroit seem to buy SUVs and pickups. When they buy cars, it's generally Honda/Toyota - and often it's the same people that'll have American SUV/truck and foreign car.

The first 2 years that car did not turn a profit, or so it is said.

Well, of course not. New technology almost never turns a profit right away. That's why money spent on R&D is referred to as an investment.

[Bicycle Bob]

The Cobalt is hardly a hotbed of new technology.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

The problem there is that they obviously don't. Leaving politics out and sticking strictly to cars, have you priced SUVs or big pickups, especially once you start adding options? They're right up there in Volt territory, sometimes - Hummer, Escalade, &c - well beyond. Are the people who buy these buying with their wallets? Or with something on the other side of their trousers?

Good Lord how many thousands of $$ in options are you adding to a base Prius anyway? From what you are saying people are about doubling the price of a Prius with so many options. Shesh, I have crank up windows, no ABS, no power door locks, and saved a lot from just that. I never meet any people that bought $15,000 in options on a new car. But, hey, east Kentucky is not in the US.

Just like there weren't enough to mean squat in Prius sales, eh?

I have little idea what you are saying. Lets see, where to start, based on what I can understand from your post.... The Prius never made a profit for at least two model years, and even had a great bump in sales in 2008 due to $4.00 a gallon gas, they were in a good position and YOU seem to keep forgetting the price of a Prius is NOT $40,000 a car, and if it is, then you have waaaay to many factory options on it!

Oh, back up a sec... What is on their trousers? huh? I guess your just too smart for me. And I have not seen a Hummer on the road since the $4.00 gas prices of 2008 and I have been through some fairly big cities, where the hell are all of these Hummers that people drive to work in? I guess it has something to do with the traffic flow here, that must of all part of living here here 15th planet that rotates around our sun known as "East Kentucky". I am PROUD of living where I do. Repeating that you do not recognize East Kentucky as being the U.S, well at best you must mean PART of the U.S. Gosh we have people here that like to pretend California is not part of America, but that does not stop me from hearing out what the folks on the west coast have to say- I do not put up a mental wall and say "And California is not the US". A closed mind is like a closed book.

My only point I am trying to make is because our economy is so poor that I do not think the market for cars 40K and higher is enough to help GM out of their mess. Everyday I hear and read where people talk about The Volt, and the very next thing they talk about is the rumored 40K price- Believe me, just by reading the forums on here it is most clear that asking 40K for The Volt, a first generation car, will be out-priced problem for many potential customers. That's what happens when all of our middle income jobs go to China and the workers are now lucky to flip hamburgers for a minute. Gosh the market for USED cars is way bigger than the market for NEW cars, all because of what people can and can not afford. Even GM has already expressed some concerns about the rumored price of The Volt.

You need to remember, though, that East Kentucky is not the US.

Ah, I got the message the first time. You need to understand that East Kentucky IS part of the US no matter how much you may wish it not to be true, I would think even an 6th grade education would teach one that.

I suppose neither is Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, Tennessee, Georgia, Florida and all the other places I have been are not the US. either I have been around.

I seen a first in the nearby town this year- A Prius hybrid, an fact one was in front of my to day at a drive thu. The town is so small were all pretty sure the owner works at the hospital, because we just do not seem to have any more here and have seen it parked there before. That's how small the city is.

As for the rest of your arguments all I can say is I have no idea what your trying to say nor what is your point. I guess being from East Kentucky means I can not understand certain posts.

I really would like to drop this debate because I see nobody winning, nor do I see any sense in each of us trying to get the last word in. So if you want to reply again, fine, but please don't provoke me to defend my positions again, it's not doing the other members any good either as we go back and forth in an endless debate that others likely will rather not read.