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Old 07-20-2016, 10:02 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I could turn this argument right around and ask the same of you.

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Originally Posted by mcrews View Post

If we want to be narrow minded ....we can!
THe mods are clear on what can be posted and what can't.
you seem to want to create rules that apply to you and your 'needs'.
The mods are very clear. All I ask is that the rules that are already in place be applied even in the Corral. Is that too much to ask?

And being narrow minded is NOT the aim of the majority of people in this forum. You may stand alone in that regard.

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Old 07-20-2016, 10:33 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
They call the H+ a proton because, by definition, it is. Hydrogen is just a proton and an electron. In an aqueous solution that electron is often lost and the H+ ion is formed.

The H+ ion is called a radical. Other radicals are formed if water is present. Which it is if there is some steam and EGR. That allows the formation of OH- radicals and others such as the famed (in combustion science at least) HOOH radical which was postulated decades ago .

I'll post what's in the Wiki Link I put there earlier.

"The hydron (a completely free or "naked" hydrogen atomic nucleus) is too reactive to occur in many liquids, even though it is sometimes visualized to do so by students of chemistry. A free hydron would react with a molecule of the liquid to form a more complicated cation. Examples are the hydronium ion in water-based acids, and H
2F+ , the unstable cation of fluoroantimonic acid, the strongest superacid. For this reason, in such liquids including liquid acids, hydrons diffuse by contact from one complex cation to another, via the Grotthuss mechanism."


Sooooo, if I'm reading that right, these have nothing to do with what you're doing because of the extreme reactivity of it. When you posted "Proton" earlier this week, that was my immediate thought, you were referring to H+ somehow. But I knew this would not factor into anything because it would instantly cling to the nearest electron it could find forming some weird molecule and thus be unavailable to you for use as a sort of chemical accelerant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
These radicals can crash into a carbon chain causing the release of other smaller compounds and more free radicals from the loosed hydrogen. If you look at the Arrhenius rate equation that is used to predict rates of reactions of aqueous solutions ( acid/base reactions) you see a parallel to what is happening in a combustion chamber. The hotter the mix gets, the faster reactions become. If you have certain compounds in the mix, these compounds act as accelerators. Much the same occurs in the engines combustion chamber. It is an INTERACTION.
Explain this "Domino Effect" process of how H2 is going to "Shred" gasoline hydrocarbons when it is at concentration of 1,000:1 causing a vast amount of more free hydrogen or lighter hydrocarbons. The 230CC per minute is assuming it is pure Browns gas which is 66.6% H2 and 33.3% O2, so the 700:1 becomes closer to 1,000:1. Show me where it talks about this reaction on the web somewhere that is NOT an HHO site.

BTW, your bringing added O2 and H2O from your system into the equation are moot since water vapor is present at 2% give er take, and O2 is 23% of the 15,000:1 air that the engine is using. The H2 would be the only added compound which is not already present in the atmosphere.

This seems to me to be the basis of where you're efficiency lies, so it should be reasonable to ask where this information comes from.

Also, there are 6 Red highlighted sections in the post I made earlier that I am seeking clarification on. You claim these are not pseudo-scientific but you have not addressed these. I posted earlier today that it is difficult to have a logical conversation with you because you do not answer questions. I am saying those 6 Red passages are not quantified in anyway and are very confusing to someone who is trying to understand this. Are you going to address these points further? Or just prove my point that you do not answer questions when asked? Or somehow get exasperated with me and continue to attack me thus again avoiding the answers and further digging the chasm you have created by you're unwillingness to discuss things civilly?
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Old 07-21-2016, 12:02 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Rusty, I am not sure how many people will read post #18 or who understand positively-charged particles hang out in water, but you guys just had one thread closed, and we have another member trying to go the way of Old Mechanic.

Do we need to repeat history? I like having PGFPro around. I miss Mech.

I do not know why people cannot discuss HHO without it getting absolutely out of control. A couple of you say it can work. The rest say it is impossible. However, they specify what proof you need. All that I remember seeing is "I already proved it!" and logical arguments.

Logic is great. I wish that more people used it, but we use logic to test theories.

This debate has been at an impasse since the beginning. None of you are convincing anyone else.

Please stop.

By the way, HHO is off-topic. This thread is about being respectful, you warthog-faced buffoons.
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Old 07-21-2016, 12:04 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedDevil View Post
In water one in ten million hydrogen atom will be a loose ion because of the polar properties of water molecules...
I have to pull that back.
There are no sole hydrogen ions, called hydrons, in water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
In chemistry, a hydron is the general name for a cationic form of atomic hydrogen, represented with the symbol H+.
However, in most textbooks, this term is avoided and instead "proton" is used ...
The hydron (a completely free or "naked" hydrogen atomic nucleus) is too reactive to occur in many liquids, even though it is sometimes visualized to do so by students of chemistry. A free hydron would react with a molecule of the liquid to form a more complicated cation. Examples are the hydronium ion in water-based acids, and H2F+, the unstable cation of fluoroantimonic acid, the strongest superacid. For this reason, in such liquids including liquid acids, hydrons diffuse by contact from one complex cation to another, via the Grotthuss mechanism.[2]
In Ph neutral water, there will be about one hydronium ion per ten million water molecules. Just to keep the record straight.
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Old 07-21-2016, 01:08 PM   #25 (permalink)
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You have wisdom far beyond your years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xist View Post
Rusty, I am not sure how many people will read post #18 or who understand positively-charged particles hang out in water, but you guys just had one thread closed, and we have another member trying to go the way of Old Mechanic.

Do we need to repeat history? I like having PGFPro around. I miss Mech.

I do not know why people cannot discuss HHO without it getting absolutely out of control. A couple of you say it can work. The rest say it is impossible. However, they specify what proof you need. All that I remember seeing is "I already proved it!" and logical arguments.

Logic is great. I wish that more people used it, but we use logic to test theories.

This debate has been at an impasse since the beginning. None of you are convincing anyone else.

Please stop.

By the way, HHO is off-topic. This thread is about being respectful, you warthog-faced buffoons.
And your subtle humor is always refreshing.

And you are right. No one can "convince or convert" another over such a topic as this that seems to push peoples buttons all wrong. The funny thing is, I know HHO or Brown's Gas or whatever the "true believers" call it, does not work as advertised. That is the point I am trying to make. It has a very small and specialized effect. It is worth some investigation if only to have answers to a visitor's question of "does it work".

I have hardware and am willing to do installations and tests even if they show that "it doesn't work" so that we can use it as reference. If there is some positive gains, that also can go into our base of knowledge. The question is, can the experimentation be done without it being snowed under and relegated to the trash heap? That is the problem. Would it be possible to investigate with inquisitiveness instead of making it an inquisition?

And I hope people understand by now, I am quite capable of taking verbal abuse. It really doesn't bother me like it does others. So don't do it. I'll just take it and throw it right back at you. But, What really, really bugs me is having my train of thought derailed. I don't like anyone's train of thought derailed! Even threads that are not mine, but are an enjoyable read. I follow Oil Pan4's threads because he has a practical, hands on approach to finding solutions. And yes, I do the same with T_Vago because he has convinced me to purchase and try to program Arduino controllers. Even in their threads, I find posts that are better serviced in PMs or by waiting. It is just an irritant for me, but it reduces the pleasure of reading and following along. That is just in the normal thread. Imagine a reader trying to get any information out of any HHO thread. 99% of the posts will be tangential or defamatory.

I expect a certain amount of static on my thread to investigate the Brown's Gas Phenomenon. That is only to be expected. I am just trying to pave the way to reduce that to a tolerable level.
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Old 07-21-2016, 01:29 PM   #26 (permalink)
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you are pretty close to grasping the concept of what H+ can do as a radical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChazInMT View Post
I'll post what's in the Wiki Link I put there earlier.

"The hydron (a completely free or "naked" hydrogen atomic nucleus) is too reactive to occur in many liquids, even though it is sometimes visualized to do so by students of chemistry. A free hydron would react with a molecule of the liquid to form a more complicated cation. Examples are the hydronium ion in water-based acids, and H
2F+ , the unstable cation of fluoroantimonic acid, the strongest superacid. For this reason, in such liquids including liquid acids, hydrons diffuse by contact from one complex cation to another, via the Grotthuss mechanism."


Sooooo, if I'm reading that right, these have nothing to do with what you're doing because of the extreme reactivity of it. When you posted "Proton" earlier this week, that was my immediate thought, you were referring to H+ somehow. But I knew this would not factor into anything because it would instantly cling to the nearest electron it could find forming some weird molecule and thus be unavailable to you for use as a sort of chemical accelerant.



Explain this "Domino Effect" process of how H2 is going to "Shred" gasoline hydrocarbons when it is at concentration of 1,000:1 causing a vast amount of more free hydrogen or lighter hydrocarbons. The 230CC per minute is assuming it is pure Browns gas which is 66.6% H2 and 33.3% O2, so the 700:1 becomes closer to 1,000:1. Show me where it talks about this reaction on the web somewhere that is NOT an HHO site.

BTW, your bringing added O2 and H2O from your system into the equation are moot since water vapor is present at 2% give er take, and O2 is 23% of the 15,000:1 air that the engine is using. The H2 would be the only added compound which is not already present in the atmosphere.

This seems to me to be the basis of where you're efficiency lies, so it should be reasonable to ask where this information comes from.

Also, there are 6 Red highlighted sections in the post I made earlier that I am seeking clarification on. You claim these are not pseudo-scientific but you have not addressed these. I posted earlier today that it is difficult to have a logical conversation with you because you do not answer questions. I am saying those 6 Red passages are not quantified in anyway and are very confusing to someone who is trying to understand this. Are you going to address these points further? Or just prove my point that you do not answer questions when asked? Or somehow get exasperated with me and continue to attack me thus again avoiding the answers and further digging the chasm you have created by you're unwillingness to discuss things civilly?
As you pointed out and linked to, the H+ atom is VERY short lived. At it's creation in an electrolysis cell, it will immediately look for some way to be stable and will thus migrate to the negative plate, take on an electron and pair up with another H atom to form the diatomic H2 atom which is even more stable. This is of course a gas, which is bubbled out and which we are attempting to use in our engine under discussion.

The fact that H+ is so short lived due to it's reactivity is why it is called a radical. That H2 gas, in the combustion chamber, with enough conditions to add enough energy, dissociates back to a pair of H+ radicals. Since there is not near enough hydrogen to combust, the H+ is caught there in the nano seconds before ignition. But, it is not just sitting there. It is very reactive, as you linked to. It looks for something to do with it's reactivity. The C8H18 carbon chain is available and thus suffers the ravages. That is where the domino effect starts in. This happens billions of times a second at the flame front, but if it can be started before hand, we can gain that fraction of a second.
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Old 07-21-2016, 01:55 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mcrews View Post


If we want to be narrow minded ....we can!
THe mods are clear on what can be posted and what can't.
you seem to want to create rules that apply to you and your 'needs'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
The mods are very clear. All I ask is that the rules that are already in place be applied even in the Corral. Is that too much to ask?

And being narrow minded is NOT the aim of the majority of people in this forum. You may stand alone in that regard.
How odd.....you DO tend to misrepresent what is written to fit your thought process.


"IF" is the key word here. it is a choice, we don't have to exercise it and may never exercise it, but it is a given option. One of several allowed by this particular forum.

"being the aim" where did that come from? no one is 'aiming' to be anything.

'majority' So you interpret what I said was an 'option' as being the 'aim or goal of the majority'?????

you of course are assuming that 'being narrow minded' is a decided choice.
There are always people who thru a lack of knowledge, culture or expose are narrow minded by no choice of their own.

So that I understand the final piece of logic:
you agree that 'the mods are clear."
BUT you want something 'more clear' for yourself?
If the mods are 'clear', then you are being treated in a manor that the mods have made 'clear'.
However, you have an entire thread about treating you differently "that's all I ask", so the mods MUST NOT be clear?
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Old 07-21-2016, 01:59 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I would like to add, if you must verbally abuse someone over this or any other corral topic, abuse me. Because I don't mind being the lightning rod. But we are losing members, and have in the past because of the behavior of certain members of this community. So, if you just HAVE to have someone to yell at, yell at me. I've been here a long time and I'm not planning on going anywhere anytime soon and, you might feel just a bit better.
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Old 07-21-2016, 02:09 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I think the reader can see your position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcrews View Post
Originally Posted by mcrews View Post


If we want to be narrow minded ....we can!
THe mods are clear on what can be posted and what can't.
you seem to want to create rules that apply to you and your 'needs'.



How odd.....you DO tend to misrepresent what is written to fit your thought process.


"IF" is the key word here. it is a choice, we don't have to exercise it and may never exercise it, but it is a given option. One of several allowed by this particular forum.

"being the aim" where did that come from? no one is 'aiming' to be anything.

'majority' So you interpret what I said was an 'option' as being the 'aim or goal of the majority'?????

you of course are assuming that 'being narrow minded' is a decided choice.
There are always people who thru a lack of knowledge, culture or expose are narrow minded by no choice of their own.

So that I understand the final piece of logic:
you agree that 'the mods are clear."
BUT you want something 'more clear' for yourself?
If the mods are 'clear', then you are being treated in a manor that the mods have made 'clear'.
However, you have an entire thread about treating you differently "that's all I ask", so the mods MUST NOT be clear?
"Being closed minded is not a choice". You make some points. Does it apply to ecomodder readers? Goodness, I hope not.

But, understand, the mods have made it clear and I get that. Do you?

I am willing to abide the rules. Are you? Are others? That is all I'm asking. You seem to think I am asking for anything different. I am not.
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Old 07-21-2016, 02:20 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyLugNut View Post
I would like to add, if you must verbally abuse someone over this or any other corral topic, abuse me. Because I don't mind being the lightning rod. But we are losing members, and have in the past because of the behavior of certain members of this community. So, if you just HAVE to have someone to yell at, yell at me. I've been here a long time and I'm not planning on going anywhere anytime soon and, you might feel just a bit better.
What? (WHAT? would be yelling)

"'verbally abuse'.....abuse me"
again, proof that you want something different.
People here can do what ever they want to whom ever they want(within the Mods clear rules)
We don't need you playing passive/aggressive and 'accepting all the verbal abuse' "BECAUSE you can take it."
Please point out who is 'YELLING"?

but again, as a reminder:
" You consistently have proven yourself incapable of logical discussion because you refuse to answer questions directly." How is a person supposed to have a logical discussion with someone that does not provide the information asked? I would like to understand how your system is supposed to work but you only speak the language of pseudoscience. This is why you raise the ire of those of us here.
"

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