Why is Ethanol such a polarizing topic?

[Allch Chcar]

1/3 of the Corn that goes for Ethanol becomes dried distiller's grain. I don't know the ratio it can be mixed with corn but it's most of the nutrients minus the starch.

Originally Posted by Frank Lee

I just read that 80% of corn is used for animal feed.

I get 53% goes to feed if all DDG goes to feed. 40% goes to Ethanol(1/3 becomes DDG), 40% is feed, and then 10% is sweet corn. Where did you get 80%?

[Frank Lee]

Computer I'm on doesn't allow links or show me the history on my computer, but I googled it and found several sources that claim 80% of corn and over 50% of soy goes directly to animal feed.

Also see startribune.com/business ...a look at how rising corn prices will affect prices at the supermarket

[litesong]

Anyone, like me, actually compare mpg records for 100% gasoline(ethanol-free) with 10% ethanol blend records?

Over many years, my 3 cars show 8%, 7% & 5% better mpg with 100% gasoline. All engines are quieter, smoother & have extra low rpm torque, such that, hills are climbed with less downshifting. One car, I was thinking of switching to fuel injection to even out its roughness. But using 100% gasoline, the engine is smooth.

Vehicles, with 14 gallon tanks, will drive like they have 15 gallon tanks, without installing a larger tank or carrying the extra gallon of gas. But they will drive an extra gallon's worth of distance on a tank. My new 2013 Elantra, bad-mouthed for poor mpg, will travel almost 39 extra miles on a tank of gas.

Hundreds of thousands of drivers support the 7000+ stations still dispensing 100% gasoline. Bet a good percentage of Ecomodders do also!

[RedDevil]

I can only provide a sample of 1. One tank of German E10 blend versus all my pure gas fillups.
Guess what? That one was my best ever by almost 3%...
(see my fuel record; links under my post)
Conditions were good for that tank but I feel that if it really were worse by 5% or more then I would not have broken my record like that.

Cannot easily get E10 or E15 over here, and certainly not as cheap as the regular at my local at saturday discount... or I'd be sure whether this was a freak case or not.

[Frank Lee]

Over many years, my 3 cars show 8%, 7% & 5% better mpg with 100% gasoline.

I need to see records to back up the claim before I believe it.

[jeff88]

Does anybody have any experience with hE15? It has hydrous ethanol in it, which not only helps to produce a more efficient engine (less CO2 output), the water helps the aluminum of the engine to form an aluminum oxide, protecting it from the corrosive-ness of ethanol.

Some good ideas have been posted already, including using stuff that can't easily or readily be recycled any way and sewer waste, which provides many usable resources (methanol, nitrogen, heavy metals, etc.). I think in terms of a production stand point, all waste should be converted to a usable energy- vehicles or the grid or anything else. I think there should be no reason to have a "dump" or landfill (there is a difference) of any kind. Why not use your lawn clippings and shrubbery that you throw away anyway for a beneficial energy use (or for composting, which is done already)? Why not do something beneficial with your refuse, rather than throwing it into a landfill (and maybe getting methanol production out of it, maybe)? Why dump your dump into the bay/river/ocean, when it can used for energy (like previously mentioned)?

Also, if we don't want to mix food corn with fuel corn, we could always use the energy content from the waste of the crop (i.e. the leaves and stalks of the corn). That would also provide another income source for farmers. It may not be as energy rich as gas or diesel, but at least it comes from a *relatively* renewable source.

[Allch Chcar]

Nope, only dry Ethanol with denaturant available here. I put 1 gallon of E85 into the van before I filled it. Works out to be just under E15, roughly. Going to work up to E30 at some point but I'm taking it slow for now.

As I watch this behavior more and more I've found that views tend to vary depending on how the community prioritizes things. Not necessarily the group politics.

Here it's largely things like cost per mile, MPG, overall efficiency, and the overall environmental effects. Practical opinions based on what can be seen or proven. But opinions and politics vary wildly.

When I go to an economy car forums they focus on MPG, range per tank, how often they have to fill up, how easy it is to find, and what they heard from their preferred news source. Opinions range from "Ethanol is clean and efficient" to "Ethanol is dirtier and more expensive." But in general the majority tend to be negative. Both of the big Ford Focus forums are largely anti-Ethanol. Tom over on focusfanatics is a big name tuner there and he absolutely hates it. I couldn't find a thread there regarding E85 that he didn't participate in. FJ is full of patriotic Americans and they still tend to be negative about it.

An enthusiast car forum with engine builders and hotrodders tend to favor E85 for economical performance but not for fuel economy or any nebulous "feel good" reasons. They also tend to hate hybrids in general. NASIOC they love E85. Opinions on ft86club were mixed even after tunes for E85 showed huge gains. Despite the fact that two of the largest feeder communities (Supra and Subaru fanboys) love it. There are multiple Flexfuel kits available for a brand new car! Even now it's still divided between people who run E85 and people who are "forced" to buy E10. Some people claim it even causes engine crickets.

I've gone to car forums and seen people complain specifically about E10, call Ethanol a boondoggle, praise E85 as the messiah, detractors comment about how good/bad they hear it is, and tuners discuss their personal experience. I've heard just about every myth that is believed. The primary reason I support the alt energy I do is because I spent time researching it, reading technical studies, political news, and reading/hearing people's personal experience. Now the majority opinion might still support Ethanol and the RFS that largely encourages it. But I'm having a hard time finding that opinion on the places I go. The E85 forums I've found were tiny or abandoned.

It makes me question how viable it is without more support. Even the most stalwart, diehard Ethanol supporter will balk if you mention "eliminating Fossil Fuels." Which we could not do with Corn alone. But as it is we can't even use all the Corn Ethanol we have. We exported 10% of what we made last year. If this keeps up, where will Ethanol be in 5/10 years?

[Frank Lee]

FJ is full of patriotic Americans and they still tend to be negative about it.

I'd think patriotic Americans would be excited and supportive about home-grown fuel. But what do I know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urrbhgC8PB0

[RedDevil]

The slight water content in hE15 makes it cheaper to produce than pure E15, as it takes a lot of effort to eradicate the last bit of water from the ethanol. And even though it produces less power than pure E15, its relative efficiency is slightly better so the effective drop in efficiency is less than the 1% you'd expect from the water content %.

Actually, hE15 is the only ethanol-containing fuel on sale here in any quantity. I have to make a detour to get it, but will do so one day for the sake of science

[litesong]

Gasoline engines are designed & built to use 100% gasoline(ethanol-free) at its most efficient. The EPA runs its tests of gasoline engines with the equivalent of 100% gasoline. Auto manufacturers like that, since 100% gasoline gives their gasoline engines their best efficiency.

Ethanol engines, with higher compression ratios than gasoline engines, are designed & built to use ethanol at its most efficient...... like INDY cars.

This not rocket science.

But it is good 100% gasoline science, as the gasoline engined cars come off the assembly line. I am not talking about modifications or additions.

I am not in the league of ecomodders, making no mods to my cars. My 2013 Elantra, as it came from the dealer, using 100% gasoline, is averaging 39mpg, with ~15% city driving, with a high of 43mpg. My previous 3 cars have always responded better to 100% gasoline than the ethanol industry & the EPA give it credit.