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Old 08-08-2013, 05:31 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by litesong View Post
Gasoline engines are designed & built to use 100% gasoline(ethanol-free) at its most efficient. .
Why on earth would auto manufacturers design their cars to run best on a fuel that's almost impossible to find anywhere?

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Originally Posted by litesong View Post
The EPA runs its tests of gasoline engines with the equivalent of 100% gasoline. Auto manufacturers like that, since 100% gasoline gives their gasoline engines their best efficiency.
Citation needed.

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Old 08-08-2013, 05:55 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by shovel View Post

Citation needed.
Read the U.S. Federal Register (Part II, EPA), Section D. Emissions Test Fuel:

...excerpt from my post on CruzeTalk forum:

Remember how we here have been *****ing about EPA testing vehicles for emissions and MPG using one fuel (Indolene, 91 octane) while the "real-world" uses a different fuel (E10, 87 octane)? Well, it seems as though EPA finally "...got the memo..." because in the governments' May 21, 2013, Federal Register, the EPA is proposing they drop the use of neat (clear) gasoline (Indolene) and require the usage of two new "test fuels":

"D. Emissions Test Fuel (FR page 29908)

1. Proposed Changes to Gasoline Emissions Test Fuel

In-use gasoline has changed considerably since EPA's fuel specifications for emissions testing of specifications for emissions testing of light- and heavy-duty gasoline vehicles were first set and last revised. Gasoline sulfur and benzene have been reduced and, perhaps most improtantly, gasoline containing 10 percent ethanol by volume (E10) has replaced clear gasoline (E0) across the country. This has second-order effects on other gasoline properties. In-use fuel is projected to continue to change with implementation of the RFS2 program (e.g., the expansion of the number of retailers that offer E15) as well as today's proposed Tier 3 gasoline sulfur program. As a result, we are preposing to update our federal emission test fuel specifications not only to better match today's in-use fuel but also to be forward looking with respect to future ethanol and sulfur content[317]. The revised test fuel specification would apply for exhaust emissions testing, fuel economy/greenhouse gas testing, and emissions testing for non-exhaust emissions (evaporative, refueling, and leak detection testing). The proposed gasoline specifications, found at Paragraph 1065.710, would apply to emissions testing of light-duty cars and trucks as well as heavy-duty gasoline vehicles certified on the chassis test, those subject to the proposed Tier 3 standards[318]."


"(FR page 29911)

2. Proposed Flexible Fuel Vehicle Test Fuel

While the Agency has for some time had testing requirements for flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs) on E85 fuel blends, EPA currently has no regulatory specifications for the test fuel itself. Historically, our laboratory practice has been to blend indolene (E0) with neat ethanol and normal butane to produce an FFV test fuel with 83 volume percent ethanol and an RVP from 6.0 to 6.5 psi. However, the lack of E85 test fuel specifications has caused confusion and inconsistency among FFV manufacturers in carrying out their certification requirements."

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Old 08-09-2013, 01:55 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Frank, that was just plain weird.

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The slight water content in hE15 makes it cheaper to produce than pure E15, as it takes a lot of effort to eradicate the last bit of water from the ethanol. And even though it produces less power than pure E15, its relative efficiency is slightly better so the effective drop in efficiency is less than the 1% you'd expect from the water content %.
To exempt Alcohol from beverage taxes it must be denatured. And it's also legally required to be "dry" before it can be used with Gasoline. I've heard of some people testing "wet" alcohol, but not very often.

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Originally Posted by litesong View Post
Gasoline engines are designed & built to use 100% gasoline(ethanol-free) at its most efficient. The EPA runs its tests of gasoline engines with the equivalent of 100% gasoline. Auto manufacturers like that, since 100% gasoline gives their gasoline engines their best efficiency.

Ethanol engines, with higher compression ratios than gasoline engines, are designed & built to use ethanol at its most efficient...... like INDY cars.

This not rocket science.

But it is good 100% gasoline science, as the gasoline engined cars come off the assembly line. I am not talking about modifications or additions.

I am not in the league of ecomodders, making no mods to my cars. My 2013 Elantra, as it came from the dealer, using 100% gasoline, is averaging 39mpg, with ~15% city driving, with a high of 43mpg. My previous 3 cars have always responded better to 100% gasoline than the ethanol industry & the EPA give it credit.
Uh, the 100% Gasoline engines work just fine on Ethanol blends as far as efficiency. The loss in MPG is for less energy density not efficiency. Don't confuse the archaic fuel efficiency with actual efficiency. Because when it comes down to it, the space it once occupied matters little once it burns and propels you down the road.

The energy efficiency is about the same if not better especially in mid ethahanol blends. Sure 100% Gasoline and 100% Ethanol might seem radically different. But It's been proven that ideal spark timing for Ethanol blends are exactly the same as Gasoline. Even E85 has the same ideal spark timing as regular Gasoline. What differs is the octane(depends on the BoB) and the air to fuel ratios.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:19 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Tele-man you forgot the important part.

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Ethanol—adding a 15 volume percent ethanol specification to be forward-looking with respect to the maximum gasoline ethanol concentration Tier 3 vehicles could expect to encounter. EPA recently issued a waiver under section 211(f)(4) of the CAA permitting E15 to beintroduced into commerce for use in MY2001 and newer light-duty motor vehicles. [320] While E15 is only commercially available at a limited number of fuel retailers, EPA believes it could become a major gasoline blend over the next 10-15 years given instability in crude oil pricing and growing RFS2 renewable fuel requirements. The use of E15 as the emission test fuel will help ensure that all future vehicles are capable of meeting Tier 3 emission standards while operating on E15.
Now that the EPA has certified E15 for all 2001+ vehicles, they want to require manufacturers to test on E15. They not only continue to support E15, they believe it will become common as time goes on. I do like that they are following through on increasing the base quantity of Ethanol. I have gone back and forth on this a few times myself. What I really want them to do is push for more Flexfuel vehicles and then E85 optimized engines.

Automakers have long wanted to increase the octane levels in fuels. Not just for more powerful engines but greater fuel efficiency. The premium price of premium has long been a deterrent. That is absolutely why we should get behind the EPA's E30 proposal for the Tier III program. Automakers will then have incentive to make more engines designed for Premium octane fuel which can then run on your choice of Premium Gasoline or a Premium mid blend of Ethanol. This is a good use for Ethanol and promotes greater efficiency.
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:27 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Over here it is cleared from beverage taxes when it is rendered impotable, like by mixing it with methanol. Or gasoline. So no need to first extract the last bit of water and then add it again.
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:47 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by litesong View Post
Anyone, like me, actually compare mpg records for 100% gasoline(ethanol-free) with 10% ethanol blend records?

Over many years, my 3 cars show 8%, 7% & 5% better mpg with 100% gasoline. All engines are quieter, smoother & have extra low rpm torque, such that, hills are climbed with less downshifting. One car, I was thinking of switching to fuel injection to even out its roughness. But using 100% gasoline, the engine is smooth.

Vehicles, with 14 gallon tanks, will drive like they have 15 gallon tanks, without installing a larger tank or carrying the extra gallon of gas. But they will drive an extra gallon's worth of distance on a tank. My new 2013 Elantra, bad-mouthed for poor mpg, will travel almost 39 extra miles on a tank of gas.

Hundreds of thousands of drivers support the 7000+ stations still dispensing 100% gasoline. Bet a good percentage of Ecomodders do also!
Yes, although some fills I have recorded resulted in a blend. I can't pick the difference in mileage between the E10 and any other fuels of varying octane.

There is far more difference between tanks of the same fuel, due to differences in traffic density, A/C use etc., than with the effects of different fuels.
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:55 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RedDevil View Post
The slight water content in hE15 makes it cheaper to produce than pure E15, as it takes a lot of effort to eradicate the last bit of water from the ethanol. And even though it produces less power than pure E15, its relative efficiency is slightly better so the effective drop in efficiency is less than the 1% you'd expect from the water content %.

Actually, hE15 is the only ethanol-containing fuel on sale here in any quantity. I have to make a detour to get it, but will do so one day for the sake of science
The chemical make up of the fuel would be interesting to know. With water in the mix (literally and figuratively), what is in the fuel to avoid corrosion and phase separation?
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:30 PM   #58 (permalink)
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The chemical make up of the fuel would be interesting to know. With water in the mix (literally and figuratively), what is in the fuel to avoid corrosion and phase separation?
I'm no expert on this, but I've read that pure ethanol is very aggressive on aluminum and other alloys, while even just 1 % of water would stop that, and a higher water content could even de-oxidize it (iirc).
The effect is the same in ethanol/gasoline blends, as the gasoline is pretty much inert to the alloy.

We're talking about a 85% gas / 14.4% ethanol / 0.6% water mixture over here. So 15% of 'wet' ethanol.

It is hard to find anything on the subject that's not written in Dutch, but here goes. To make matters worse, HE.15 happens to be some kind of aluminum alloy code.
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Old 08-09-2013, 03:34 PM   #59 (permalink)
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A few years ago I dropped the metal gas tank from the Tempo to change the fuel pump. I've been running E85 and various blends of ethanol, never less than E10, since I owned the thing starting in 2000. That gas tank looked absolutely spotless inside, no corrosion, no goop, no dirt.
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Old 08-09-2013, 08:51 PM   #60 (permalink)
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All this talk about corn as a food... Has nobody heard of the Paleo Diet? I don't believe that any grains are good for human or most animals consumption. No grains, no legumes, dairy is hotly debated. I just cleared up diabetes, heart disease, stroke, cancers and now our fuel problems. And I just helped you drop body weight, which means less power is needed to move your vehicles. Your welcome for the extra FE

Ever tell someone you don't eat bread? or Pasta? or Cereal? People get militant!

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