Why you can't buy a high mpg car....

[mcrews]

Originally Posted by jtbo

Here is very small car industry, just one small factory, that has made Porsches and Saabs, it makes today https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fisker_Karma

It should be rather fuel efficient, is there anything like that made or sold in US?

.

from your link.......
After missing its initial late 2009 launch, and after the launch was rescheduled several times, the first deliveries took place in the U.S. in late July 2011,[8][9][10] and deliveries to retail customers began in November 2011.[6] Since December 2011 pricing in the U.S. starts at US$102,000 for the basic model, and US$116,000 for the top model

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by niky

Why are we talking about boutique sports cars in a thread about high mpg cars, again?

Because it refutes the claim that auto manufacturers can't profitably build and sell niche cars. As a matter of fact, when you get right down to it, ALL cars are niche cars.

The MINI, again, is the closest, but it sells more on coolness than practicality.

Migawd, he's FINALLY managed to get the effing POINT! Cars don't sell on practicality, they sell on (perceived) coolness. That's just as true (if not more so) for the giant SUVs as for the Mini. They aren't at all practical for the vast majority of people that drive them, but they're purchased not just because some people think big is cool (or will make them cool by compensating for their inadequacies), but because the automakers have spent vast amounts of money on advertising to persuade people that they're cool.

Having driven the entire MINI line-up... I can say that the Clubman is the one MINI that actually makes sense from a practical point of view. The Cooper is tiny. The back seat is pathetic and cargo space is small compared to many old school subcompacts and non-existent compared to the compacts it's priced against.

But what's practical for you may not be so for me. I've no use at all for a back seat, and seldom carry more than a couple of dogs and a backpack.

...the chassis rigidity of this Austrian-made car is disappointing, especially in white.... which just happened to be the color I drove.

You think the paint is a structural element?

[LeanBurn]

I remember this: National Maximum Speed Law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia a national program that had echoes in Canada. It kind of worked but mostly people just sped and paid fines. There is a lot of double-talk of wanting to be more fuel efficient on all sides, government and consumer and others...but it is glacial in actually occurring. The economy and world situations are much different than in the 70's, so it will take something else to spur a general shift in attitude on all sides.

[niky]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Because it refutes the claim that auto manufacturers can't profitably build and sell niche cars. As a matter of fact, when you get right down to it, ALL cars are niche cars.

I've never claimed it's not profitable to sell niche cars per se.

The problem is... the cost-equation of the niche. If that niche is the $50 steak that people order only once a week that you make a bigger profit on than your regular steaks, it's worth it. If you have to carry cut-priced pasta that maybe one diner in fifty will eat and which makes you little profit but takes precious time for the cook to prepare when he should be cooking steaks for the other customers... your call.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Migawd, he's FINALLY managed to get the effing POINT! Cars don't sell on practicality, they sell on (perceived) coolness. That's just as true (if not more so) for the giant SUVs as for the Mini. They aren't at all practical for the vast majority of people that drive them, but they're purchased not just because some people think big is cool (or will make them cool by compensating for their inadequacies), but because the automakers have spent vast amounts of money on advertising to persuade people that they're cool.

If you'd read what I wrote, no amount of manufacturer intervention will convince people a car is cool. Did Cadillac's brilliant idea of getting rappers and drug dealers to endorse the Escalade make it the most desired SUV ever? Nope. The market did that all on its own. You can go some way to doing it, but nobody is ever going to think a cheap instant coffee from 7-11 is as cool as an expensive frap from Starbucks. Or that a $100 Android tablet is as cool as an iPad. (but then, at just $100, people are going to buy the Android, anyway) The price and exclusivity are part of that... and that matters in an inherently irrational, wasteful, large purchase like buying a new car.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

But what's practical for you may not be so for me. I've no use at all for a back seat, and seldom carry more than a couple of dogs and a backpack.

Like I said... MINI Hardtop? If I were in the market, yes, in a heartbeat. Simply because it's a cool toy. Those dogs and backpack would just as easily fit into a cheaper (and more economical) Fit... or the Spark (Lord knows when it will get there).

The original complaint was "why no high mpg cars". The answer is... "people don't buy enough of them to make it worth the while". My supporting arguments are: "The only mildly successful small car is the MINI, which sells less than a fourth of what the Fit sells (and both are on a downward sales trend), which sells less than a fourth of what the Civic sells, which sells in slightly less volume than the Accord.... but is now newer and bigger than ever."

If you're going to accept the low margins inherent in lowering the price of that small car to meet the expectations of a US car market that's used to paying much less for bigger cars than anywhere else, then it'll be difficult. If you instead say: "Screw that" and bring the car in at a premium and price it as a luxury item instead (MINI, Fiat 500 (which isn't doing well) and the upcoming Opel ADAM... which probably won't make it there), then you're not going to sell them in big volumes, but at least your dealers will be happy.

Originally Posted by jamesqf

You think the paint is a structural element?

Did I ever say that? Perhaps I was missing an adjective. I should have said "especially (oddly) in white". This is from observations by MINI owners that the white cars from the Steyr factory seem to be more prone to creaks and rattles than others. Perhaps they're built on a different line. [conspiracy] Perhaps the colored paint is a structural element, filling in the spaces around the bolts.[/conspiracy] Who knows. But that the factory can consistently make white cars that creak like a leaky tub is mind-boggling. That white test unit is the only MINI I've driven that's like that. I previously had a hardtop, a Clubman, one non-S Countryman and one 2WD Countryman Cooper S... and only the white Cooper S Countryman sounded like that.... which is what prompted me to look online for the experience of others.

Weird? Yes... yes it is!

[brucepick]

Originally Posted by niky

... The problem is... the cost-equation of the niche. If that niche is the $50 steak that people order only once a week that you make a bigger profit on than your regular steaks, it's worth it. If you have to carry cut-priced pasta that maybe one diner in fifty will eat and which makes you little profit but takes precious time for the cook to prepare when he should be cooking steaks for the other customers... your call.
...

I agree. I've been bemoaning the fact that most cars sold are loaded with expensive options, and in many cases that's also true for lower priced cars. I say it's because they are sold to buyers of NEW cars, and buyers of new cars want as many spiffy amenities as they possibly can get. So those doodads get loaded into the cars.

And, just to attempt to make this post relevant to the thread, along with the spiffy amenities those new car buyers expect quick acceleration, large interior capacity to cover multiple anticipated future needs, etc. etc. etc., and the vehicle grows ever larger, heavier, and more fuel thirsty.

[euromodder]

Originally Posted by niky

A MINI is porky for something so small.
This is not to say that the MINI is not a nice car.

It's positioned well above the other small / similarly sized cars.
Europe has a market for image-boosting, up-market, feature-loaded small cars.

But as a business case for selling small, high MPG cars in the US at a decent price, the MINI is not a good example

There are certainly less expensive options that may well be more practical - but aside from the Fiat 500, can none of those match the fun factor.

In the US, once again you're not getting the most efficient versions of the MINI.
Dunno if you guys are getting the base version, known locally as the Mini "One" ?

[niky]

Personally, not being the US, I've seen the ONE, though it's one of the variants I've yet to drive... Think they're a much better value, especially as they're not usually bundled with the woeful run-flats. Probably best way to get your MINI fix. The lower-profile tires and alloys on the higher models don't really add anything to the performance... they detract from it, in fact.

[UltArc]

Originally Posted by euromodder

It's positioned well above the other small / similarly sized cars.
Europe has a market for image-boosting, up-market, feature-loaded small cars.


There are certainly less expensive options that may well be more practical - but aside from the Fiat 500, can none of those match the fun factor.

In the US, once again you're not getting the most efficient versions of the MINI.
Dunno if you guys are getting the base version, known locally as the Mini "One" ?

We don't get the One. Most people here don't realize that MINI is a brand, and Cooper is a car. Rather frustrating...I'd continue my MINI rant, bit it's so large it may make me late for work.

[Neen]

Good information on the MINI vs MINI Cooper....most people can't seem to grasp that.

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by niky

The problem is... the cost-equation of the niche.

True, but that brings us back full-circle to Detroit's mental block which causes them to believe that small cars must be cheap - both in the sense of low cost and inferior quality/amenities. So when they occasionally try building small cars, they make them cheap, and wonder why they don't sell many, and complain that they can't make a profit on the low overhead.

Though I did think of one instance of a Detroit-built small(er) car that sold fairly well, the PT Cruiser. And why did it sell? Because the retro looks gave it a coolness factor.

If you'd read what I wrote, no amount of manufacturer intervention will convince people a car is cool.

No? Then they are wasting an awful lot of money on advertising, don't you think?

Did Cadillac's brilliant idea of getting rappers and drug dealers to endorse the Escalade make it the most desired SUV ever? Nope. The market did that all on its own.

Can't really comment on this. I don't recall ever having seen an ad for the Escalade (I only see TV when visiting friends), and would have automatically tuned out anything containing rap. Further, I can't even claim to know whether the Escalade IS desired or considered cool, except perhaps among the more money than brains class.

You can go some way to doing it, but nobody is ever going to think a cheap instant coffee from 7-11 is as cool as an expensive frap from Starbucks.

Covered this above. Small/efficient does not have to be cheap, in either sense.

Like I said... MINI Hardtop? If I were in the market, yes, in a heartbeat. Simply because it's a cool toy. Those dogs and backpack would just as easily fit into a cheaper (and more economical) Fit...

True, and if I were in the market for replacing the Insight, I would probably pick one of those.

The original complaint was "why no high mpg cars". The answer is... "people don't buy enough of them to make it worth the while".

And I've tried to answer the question of why so few people buy small and/or high mpg cars: because the makers so often make & market them as cheap rather than cool.

If you're going to accept the low margins inherent in lowering the price of that small car to meet the expectations of a US car market...

But again, that's not the expectations of the market, it's the fixed mindset of the builders that causes them to try to build them with low profit margins. There are examples where going against this mindset is profitable: the Mini, the Prius, all the way back to the original VW Bug.