The Dishonesty of Car Companies

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by niky

What I feel bad about is that enviornmental regulations are causing the price of brand new cars to go up and longevity to go down. Regulations on zinc in motor oil combined with ever thinner motor oils and tighter tolerances (with looser, lower friction piston rings) plus more environmentally friendly bearings mean that modern engines might not last anywhere near as long as older motors.

Where on earth did you get the idea that newer engines (or cars, FTM) don't last as long as older ones? Back in the "good ol' days" it wasn't at all unusual to do valve jobs, replace rings, head gaskets, main bearings, seals, and so on before the car hit 100K miles - and adding a quart of oil every couple of thousand miles was normal. And then there was chassis lubrication: anyone else remember grease fittings?

Back in the day - say 50 years ago - a new car was pretty much junk in 5-10 years. Now I expect my 2000 Honda and 1988 Toyota to last for at least another decade with only minor maintenance & repair.

[user removed]

My aunt's brand new 1965 Cadillac wore the factory tires out in 6k miles. With my advice she replaced them with Michelins and they lasted until 70k miles and 13 years. I doubt that many here remember those days when a new Renault came with Michelins and when the tires were worn out the car was worn out.

Average life expectancy of cars has gone from 7 years to over 10 in the last 20 years. I'm seriously considering a 22 year old Nissan Sentra as my only car, which would free up thousands for the completion of the 3 wheeler project. I would not even consider that 20 years ago and many here drive cars with awhole lot more than 176k miles.

As far as honesty or dishonesty I think dishonesty is driven by convenience, when it used to be a matter of principle to the point of personal sacrifice. There are too many underemployed lawyers available for lawsuits against corporations and franchises in the auto industry who think dishonesty and misrepresentation of product will be beneficial.

Not that it does not happen, but it is typically in circumstances where real evidence is just not there or it's a matter of being told something that you know will be denied in any confrontation.

regards
Mech

[Cobb]

Nissan Sentra?!?!? Go for it. When I worked at sears tire america I saw a lot of those cars with over 300 k miles on them come in for tires. Next up would be ford with its inline 6 engine in the explorer and trucks.

[niky]

The B13 is a lovely car. Whichever motor you get in it. Thing about those cars is rust and gear synchros... but if you find one that's been driven gently and cared for... it's a keeper.

About as safe in an accident as a sardine can... but a keeper!

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Where on earth did you get the idea that newer engines (or cars, FTM) don't last as long as older ones? Back in the "good ol' days" it wasn't at all unusual to do valve jobs, replace rings, head gaskets, main bearings, seals, and so on before the car hit 100K miles - and adding a quart of oil every couple of thousand miles was normal. And then there was chassis lubrication: anyone else remember grease fittings?

Back in the day - say 50 years ago - a new car was pretty much junk in 5-10 years. Now I expect my 2000 Honda and 1988 Toyota to last for at least another decade with only minor maintenance & repair.

It's a "might not"... not "will"

I'd bet on a 2000 Honda lasting up to 300k. Many Japanese cars up to the turn of the century were overengineered to hell and back.

The issue with oil zinc regulations is a recent thing, and direct injection is even newer. Older direct injection systems were a nightmare (and not just the infamous Isuzu Trooper O-rings) and high pressure pumps and injectors are expensive. Not hearing as many issues with newer diesels regarding the fuel systems, but SCV and EGR remain a contentious issue (especially for those driven in traffic) and variable geometry turbos seem to be sensitive to hard use (mind you, our traffic here, with an average speed of about 5-15 km/h, is VERY hard use). Turbo replacement is very common for several models round these parts.

Then there are components which are not designed to be repaired... only replaced... electric power steering motors, dual clutch and continuously variable transmissions... where your only recourse is a reconditioned surplus unit or a full brand new assembly. Can't say much about the "plasma coating" and "diamond coating" on engine bores nowadays... but then, it'll be a very long time before we find out the average lifespan for these modern motors!

I could be... and I hope I am!... proven wrong. Newer fuel systems seem to be getting more reliable, and Ford is, at least, offering replacement clutches for Fiesta dual-clutch transmissions.

-

But manufacturers are really pushing the envelope here, and some early adopters for these new, high tech cars are going to get burned. But not because of car manufacturers cheaping out...

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by niky

Not hearing as many issues with newer diesels regarding the fuel systems, but SCV and EGR remain a contentious issue (especially for those driven in traffic) and variable geometry turbos seem to be sensitive to hard use (mind you, our traffic here, with an average speed of about 5-15 km/h, is VERY hard use). Turbo replacement is very common for several models round these parts.

The current generation of emissions-control devices seems to have so many downsides that it makes their eventual benefits arguable, considering all the energy expense required to overcome those problems. But you'll see what's worse when SCR arrive there for the big rigs...

[XYZ]

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Where on earth did you get the idea that newer engines (or cars, FTM) don't last as long as older ones? Back in the "good ol' days" it wasn't at all unusual to do valve jobs, replace rings, head gaskets, main bearings, seals, and so on before the car hit 100K miles - and adding a quart of oil every couple of thousand miles was normal. And then there was chassis lubrication: anyone else remember grease fittings?

Back in the day - say 50 years ago - a new car was pretty much junk in 5-10 years. Now I expect my 2000 Honda and 1988 Toyota to last for at least another decade with only minor maintenance & repair.

I agree with you in that cars can and often do last longer now. The ones that were made in the '80s and 90's were often well designed and usually not overly complicated to work on.

But the things that go wrong nowadays with a car are often no longer simple to fix. Crappy electronics, codes being set that are hard to resolve, and bad sensors come to mind. When the cost of repair exceeds the cost of keeping any vehicle, it often gets sold as a used PITA with problems that are not easily resolved.

[whatmaycome14]

Originally Posted by XYZ

I agree with you in that cars can and often do last longer now. The ones that were made in the '80s and 90's were often well designed and usually not overly complicated to work on.

But the things that go wrong nowadays with a car are often no longer simple to fix. Crappy electronics, codes being set that are hard to resolve, and bad sensors come to mind. When the cost of repair exceeds the cost of keeping any vehicle, it often gets sold as a used PITA with problems that are not easily resolved.

Yes, and the cars being made these days are rolling computers... The techs and engineers need to practically have an IT degree to work on them. I got out of the industry when the Prius came out. I'd take my 1992 Paseo to work on any day. I could get the engine out in 30min when I needed to. Swapped the whole thing in 3hrs once!

[jamesqf]

Originally Posted by XYZ

But the things that go wrong nowadays with a car are often no longer simple to fix. Crappy electronics, codes being set that are hard to resolve, and bad sensors come to mind.

Define "simple". I'll agree that current technology is often different, but I'll take tracking down a code or sensor problem over e.g. trying to balance an SU carb setup, tune a conventional carb, file and gap distributor points, etc.

Then you have a whole spectrum of problems that just don't happen with modern engines, like tuning. Nor do I know that trying to fix/replace an electric power steering motor is any worse than doing the same with a hydraulic one - and at least you don't have to regularly check & replace the power steering belt. As for variable geometry turbos, CVT transmissions, and the like, I have a simple fix: I just don't buy cars that have these things. Any new technology needs a few iterations to work out the bugs.

[mcrews]

On a personal basis, I never imagined that the 06 Kia Sportage would be running so well at 148k miles!!!
I did recently have to replace the 4 o2 sensors and then the MAF sensor but that's it!
And no repairs under the warrantee

[Mustang Dave]

My '89 F-250 is over 25 years old, and has over 291,000 miles on it. I had to replace the clutch release bearing @ around 240K. It's on its 3rd injection pump, and it's gone through several rebuilt starters. The body is rusting apart, but my fuel economy is the best I've ever seen.
I expect my '07 Mustang to go well past 200K miles before I need to even consider installing any re-manufactured assemblies. (engine, transmission, drive axle, etc.) @61K miles, brake pads are at about 75%. Had to replace the battery last December - it was 7.5 years old. FE seems to keep getting better over time.
As an auto mechanics teacher friend of mine said in the late 1970's, "They don't make 'em like they used to. Thank God they don't!"