2006 Honda Insight MT Build Thread

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Originally Posted by Ecky

Very possible your ECU has different parameters than mine, but where assist kicks in seems to vary based on SOC, some other unknown factors the ECU cares about, and *I think* throttle position - not necessarily load. Maybe load also. It's very possible, for instance, to hold the pedal down to just before 50mpg in 5th gear and cruise along with no assist. Any farther and it begins to assist. Trick is to find that threshold in every gear, and how much it varies based on RPM.

I can easily stay out of assist when cruising, but what about accleration? I can't accelerate without the IMA except on a downhill.

Originally Posted by Ecky

Not that you're doing any redline pulls but I want to say the Insight is actually a hair faster to 60mph based on Car and Driver's testing. Honda's official numbers show it a bit slower than real-world testing.

It probably is; after all it is a manual and like 1800 lbs, even if it is only around 70 hp.
Not that early upshifts let me see any of it's "speed".

Was thinking about the clutch mod earlier. If the car is actually in neutral, I get no assist or regen regardless of whether I tap the brakes or accelerator. I only get forced assist in neutral if the battery SOC is almost empty. Why wouldn't the normal clutch mod work then? There really is no reason for the car to assist while in neutral, so why would the clutch mod allow it if the car is acting as if it is in neutral?

UPDATE: Since lubing up that worn caliper pin, installing the brake reduction clips and replacing the driver's side mirror with a smaller one, the Insight coasts much better! It now coasts better than the Civic that weighed 800 pounds more, and slightly better than both the Prius that has a similar drag coefficient but weighs about 1100lbs more, and the '04 Sienna that weighed 4400 lbs and coasted really well (drag coefficient was 0.3 I saw somewhere? Seems low for a minivan..).

Just tired of these short trips of mostly <7 miles that aren't letting me get good MPGs. Pretty sure I'd be getting 75-80 MPG right now in the winter if my trips were longer, instead of 63-71 MPG.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

New trip record today!! Drove into town to fill up, 71.4 MPG over 4.8 miles on the way (going to the gas station and back is a very fuel efficient trip for the Insight) but my highest was around 65-ish MPG before. Then drove around 30 miles to the dealership where my dad works at so he and I could detail my car and touch up the paint on it, and got 90.9 MPG!!!!! On the way home tonight it was cooler and the engine was cold, but got 75.6 MPG for the return trip. Current tank is right at 82.9 MPG. It won't stay there, but I like it.



Pictures of my smaller driver's side mirror. Turned out a little tackier than I would like, but I don't really have the time to improve it yet. I will redo it eventually, but who knows when that will be.







Pictures of my panoramic rear view mirror that I posted on IC:



Clips right on to the stock mirror:



Also, Daox's shift knob came today (thanks Daox!!)
Now time to get that wiring figured out... I have only 5-6 days!!

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Quick update:

Got the regen switch wired up on Daox's shift knob and it works wonderfully. Battery is staying at 80%+ SOC regardless of driving style. Regenning power is much improved, or rather much more accessible.

Clutch mod wiring failed, but not too concerned since it isn't '05-'06 compatible anyway. Working with someone on Insight Central on a workaround that we can hopefully figure out before I leave Friday, fingers crossed there.

FAS will have to wait until I have unoccupied free time at college (aka almost never). I consider it more of a "hypermiler luxury" than an absolute necessity, but I do want to get it hooked up eventually.

Finally got hold of Scott...belly pan is scheduled to arrive Thursday or Friday. A bit disappointed on the delay and lack of communication, but I'll stop there.

Driver's side mirror fell off while washing the car, will try to reattached it with a combo of superglue and caulk since it's required in Michigan and some of the states I'll be driving through.

Dreamsight is still doing well overall and I love it. I return to college either Friday evening or Saturday morning (depending on when the belly pan arrives), and then I will be mostly MIA when it comes to updates on the car for a few months. I'll still try to pop in though and not completely ghost Ecomodder. We'll see how the Insight handles those West Virginian mountains..

[19bonestock88]

Did the smaller mirror help FE any? I’m considering making a pair of them for my Saturn, as a compromise between leaving stock mirrors (wife’s wish) and deleting them entirely(my wish)...

What size mirror did you use?

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Seem to have gotten around ~2 MPG from the passenger mirror delete and ~1 MPG from the driver's mirror reduction. Testing was rough though so real data might be lost to the wind. Over on Insight Central it's said that each mirror delete is worth a 1.5% improvement in fuel economy, or about +1.1 MPG increase each at 72 MPG average driving, at speeds between 40 and 55 MPH. Noise is slightly quieter around the mirror areas, so I know it helps.

It was a small 2 1/2" -ish diameter blind spot mirror that had been added to the stock mirrors by the original owner. Just retrofitted one on the driver's side. If I used the outside mirrors much I'd go with a more square one for better visibility and viewing angle, but I primarily use my panoramic rear view mirror, so the driver's mirror is primarily for legality.

In terms of a wife's opinion, I'm unmarried but I'd say the gains aren't worth her disapproval, unless you wow her with a panoramic rear view mirror first.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Final day of pizza delivery driving over break finished today. With no extreme hypermiling, just smart and conservative driving right at the speed limit, Dreamsight averaged exactly 65 MPG over 1043.2 miles, at a cost of $32.07. Worst day was 62 MPG and best day was 68.6 MPG. For comparison, Silver Aero averaged 37.7 MPG doing pizza delivery, which over that same distance would've cost $55.07.

Myself and a few others over on Insight Central attempted to wire up an '05-'06 compatible calpod clutch mod (IMA disable/enable on demand) equivalent (since the normal clutch mod isn't compatible with '05-'06 Insights) using a signal to and from the ABS line that supposedly disables the IMA when the ABS turns on. However that only disabled regen, not assist, just like the clutch mod does on '05-'06 Insights. However it was a good learning experience on wiring an Insight. IMA boost device? IMAC&C? Both are expensive, and unless I could resell it for the price of a new one, or close, it wouldn't be worth it even though it would be cool, as I plan on permanently bypassing the IMA when it dies.

Scott's belly pan arrived today finally, so I will be trying to install it tonight in the dark so I can leave on time tomorrow for college. Going to grid charge the IMA just to get everything reset and ready for tomorrow's trip. Will be doing key off/on EOC when safe and when the IMA SOC doesn't require much regen. Will be workin' that regen button on the downhills!

Hoping for 80 MPG on the trip. We'll see. I should be able to beat that, at least until I hit those West Virginian mountains. The trip is 705 miles, so my bare minimum is to make it on one tank. Preferably before the low fuel light comes on, so I have 9 gallons. 705 mi / 9 gal = 78.3 MPG, which I think is doable. Fingers crossed, we'll see!

[Ecky]

Good luck! A shame you haven't been able to disable assist. I'll give some consideration to this issue.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

Originally Posted by Ecky

Good luck! A shame you haven't been able to disable assist. I'll give some consideration to this issue.

Thanks! And yes, I suppose my regen switch will be used often to make up for those hills - at least that wired up correctly!

How does your arduino spoof work that sends a fake SOC to the computer? Thinking again of that idea of:
1) Button is pressed / toggle is switched on
2) Store the current SOC as a variable
3) Send a SOC of 0%
4) Disable regen

and when the button is pressed again or the toggle is switched off:
1) Get the stored SOC variable
2) Send that SOC variable to the computer
3) IMA level is where it was and the car functions normally.

Since the car can't assist when the battery is empty, and regen is disabled, something like that might work..

[Ecky]

The battery state of charge is a simple PWM signal sent from the BCM to the ECU. I am unsure what will happen if the ECU is receiving a fake signal while this computer is still otherwise connected to the rest of the system. I can see at least two possible outcomes, though there may be more:

1) By sending a fake 0% battery state to ECU in place of the BCM's actual, you'll get constant forced regen even in neutral and at idle, much like when you first start the car after having the 12v battery disconnected.

2) When the ECU gets a 0% signal, it simply won't request assist, because maybe the forced charge program isn't handled by the ECU.

You wouldn't need to record a state to be restored, because the BCM will be trying to send the real state to the ECU the whole time, you'll just be cutting the wire and temporarily substituting another. Remember, I have no BCM computer anymore.



One thing I can tell you, the ECU absolutely does not control the battery level which shows up in the cluster, so at least some of the control is decentralized. My gauge always shows empty. So, it would take experimentation to see just what happens when you send a fake signal of one variable to just one place while the system is otherwise functioning normally.

In my car, when sending a fake BCM signal to the ECU, a signal of 0% results in a different engine map (speculatively a higher torque and possibly less efficient map though I don't know this for sure - but I lose lean burn). I also get a high idle of around 1200rpm because the ECU believes the IMA system would otherwise be doing a constant forced regen. Auto-stop is disabled. The car might or might not start using only the 12v starter. I'm unsure how many seconds it would take for the behavior to change if you quit interrupting the real signal but it isn't instant, as is evidenced by my sometimes getting unwanted auto-stop when when I have the Arduino change its output at 30mph - the system often still hasn't reacted by the time I've braked to the ~22mph or so where auto-stop can happen.

I'm thinking it's quite a rabbit hole. Frankly if you figure this out, you'll probably have nearly built a custom MIMA yourself.

[mpg_numbers_guy]

A couple updates!

Arrived back at college today after driving all 711 miles on the Insight. It's official: I don't need cruise control. It's also official...I don't need, or want, the hybrid battery!

The hybrid battery is currently disabled, and when I return for spring break, I will permanently bypass it and sell the battery. The battery stays at 80%+ charge on normal driving, but every mountain drains the battery by 50%. It also seems to have a desire to background charge (no bars showing however) until the battery is at least 95%, which was KILLING MY MILEAGE. Like, at one point on the interstate, 70 MPG steady slowed down from 55 MPH to 40 MPH with the IMA, when 55 MPH was generally 85-95 MPG w/ IMA disabled.

Dreamsight averaged 82.9 MPG on the highway, and 73.7 MPG through the mountain passes. Being able to coast down the mountains without having to regen equally made up for downshifting more on the mountain passes. Also had some fun driving through some back roads to get to the university - got almost 90 MPG for that 20 mile up-and-down-twist-and-turn road, and it was fun due to how light the Insight was, and I didn't have to worry about some stupid battery!

Plus, the extra storage space....all my luggage fit fine with the battery but I wouldn't mind the extra storage space.

The entire trip was 78.2 MPG over 710.8 miles. Made it on one tank! Temps varied between 25 F and 45 F, with light snow for a bit of the trip,,but roads were good.



Also, I will not be recording fuel economy for my car unless I happen to take a longer trip. Most of my trips are quite short, i.e. 4 miles or less, and I can't really hypermile around campus. My MPG is, of course, bad. To put it into perspective, since arriving at college I have traveled 0.9 miles and averaged 31.6 MPG.

EDIT: Also! After only ~2.5k miles I brought the lifetime average up from 62.5 MPG to 62.7 MPG!! Car has 257,100 or 257,200 miles on it now.