Car prices are still insane.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

Just searching around, I can't seem to find a 50,000 miles, 5-year-old Toyota Avalon hybrid for much less than $30,000 nation wide. Now I got my then 50k mile, 5-year-old Toyota Avalon hybrid for about half that 5 years ago.

Now, I know that not all cars have increased in price by 100% compared to pre-pandemic. But they sure have increased.

Looking at 5-year-old, 50k mile cars for $15,000 shows a lot of Mitsubishi Mirages, Kia Rios, maybe a Toyota Yaris or two, and a lot of Chevy Sonics and Ford EcoSports, at least in my search.

I see a few. A 2018 Toyota Avalon Hybrid XLE had a starting MSRP of $38,420 and likely another $1000 for delivery so it is basically a $40K car. Looking at the 2018s for $24K that is 40% depriciation which is pretty normal. I would expect them to be a bit higher with that low of mileage on a 5 year old car (75,000 is average)

If you want a cheaper hybrid the Camry hybrid was the same size for $10K less. Unfortunately they hold their value a bit better as they don't have the granddad reputation the Avalon has.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

I see a few. A 2018 Toyota Avalon Hybrid XLE had a starting MSRP of $38,420 and likely another $1000 for delivery so it is basically a $40K car. Looking at the 2018s for $24K that is 40% depriciation which is pretty normal. I would expect them to be a bit higher with that low of mileage on a 5 year old car (75,000 is average)

If you want a cheaper hybrid the Camry hybrid was the same size for $10K less. Unfortunately they hold their value a bit better as they don't have the granddad reputation the Avalon has.

Those are better deals, as long as they don't have major problems. I'd also be afraid of a salvage title.

I think the Camry is a tiny bit smaller, at least in the trunk. But still, definitely the kind of car to be on my radar.

[redpoint5]

I seek out reconstructed titles, because that's an automatic 20%+ reduction in price.

[Piotrsko]

Depends on what caused the salvage title. Flooding is slow corrosion death to electronics, even after it is dried out. Definately destroys EV batteries. Change fluids on a pre OBD vehicle, dry everything out,and it's good to go. BTDT

Rip off the front bumper, don't hurt the rest of the car that's 10 years old and it can get salvage value necause that repair is worth more than the vehicles value and insurance companies don't care about your sentimentality.

2000 and later VW TDI have rust prone rear suspension in salted road climates such that the suspension components fall apart. Body and everything else is still good but you are still out a lot of dollars manufacturing a new rear end.
If you have a Cali rust free parts vehicle that was front damaged and have the time to swap good parts off you can make good money from selling the remaining parts car and repairing your rusted TDI. Anything wrong with such a salvaged TDI? Probably not.

[cRiPpLe_rOoStEr]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

Looking at 5-year-old, 50k mile cars for $15,000 shows a lot of Mitsubishi Mirages, Kia Rios, maybe a Toyota Yaris or two, and a lot of Chevy Sonics and Ford EcoSports, at least in my search.

Despite the US-spec EcoSport being made in India, it's quite surprising to me that it would be priced around the same as a more conventional econobox, despite it being just a Fiesta on steroids. BTW what about the price difference between an EcoSport and a Fiesta under those same mileage and age criteria?

[Nissandriver]

The prices are still horrible. They may never improve much. The junk I would buy for $1500 several years ago is still at least $2500 now. That's better than $3000 for junk I was seeing 1-2 years ago.

I often wonder if Cash for Clunkers wiped out a huge portion of old cars. I've been looking for a decent B13 Sentra parts cars for years and I can't find anything worth buying. More than 10 years ago, I could never find a decent parts truck for my 1991 Toyota pickup.

Motorcycle prices are horrible too. I look at 250-400cc motorcycles and they want more money for those than most of the cars I have had. I've had several good/decent cars that I paid $3000-5000.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Nissandriver

The prices are still horrible. They may never improve much. The junk I would buy for $1500 several years ago is still at least $2500 now. That's better than $3000 for junk I was seeing 1-2 years ago.

I often wonder if Cash for Clunkers wiped out a huge portion of old cars. I've been looking for a decent B13 Sentra parts cars for years and I can't find anything worth buying. More than 10 years ago, I could never find a decent parts truck for my 1991 Toyota pickup.

Motorcycle prices are horrible too. I look at 250-400cc motorcycles and they want more money for those than most of the cars I have had. I've had several good/decent cars that I paid $3000-5000.

Keep in mind inflation since 2020 is up about 25% for most things, meaning that a $3,000 car today is the same as a $2,250 car in 2020.

The cost to repair collision damage is way up, probably leading to more cars being written off as a total loss and sent to a wrecking yard.

New car supply still hasn't recovered completely.

My feeling is that we've got a couple more years until things return to "normal", although it could be a decade if we're serious about returning manufacturing to the US.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

Keep in mind inflation since 2020 is up about 25% for most things, meaning that a $3,000 car today is the same as a $2,250 car in 2020.

Of course that's in general, on average, because of the increased prices of everything. But wages haven't necessarily kept up with inflation. I know I still make about the same as I did in 2020, definitely not anywhere near 25% more than I did back then, and it's not because I'm working any less. Ya, ya, I know. I could move to some other city, state, or country and make more money.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

The cost to repair collision damage is way up, probably leading to more cars being written off as a total loss and sent to a wrecking yard.

That also makes insurance go up, like when I got quoted for $400 a month for a $15,000 used car (it was a Tesla Model S, so definitely a bit more expensive to repair than your average car).

New car supply still hasn't recovered completely.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

My feeling is that we've got a couple more years until things return to "normal", although it could be a decade if we're serious about returning manufacturing to the US.

Let's hope it's a couple more years. But some are saying this could last for decades. I don't think prices will ever come down. The question is if wages will increase to those prices or people will just do what they always do, keep on trying to get into big expensive vehicles. Even before 2020 the economic car was dying. The reason there were cheap cars was because people didn't want them. At least in America, nearly everyone wants a big, expensive SUV or pickup. Well, that's what they want so that's what's available. What any minority want's doesn't matter.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by Isaac Zachary

wages haven't necessarily kept up with inflation. I know I still make about the same as I did in 2020, definitely not anywhere near 25% more than I did back then

As usual, the middle class take the punch to the gut. Entry level wages have skyrocketed to where any talk of increasing the minimum wage is a moot point. Hardly anyone works for minimum wage anymore, as the market is paying almost 3x that.

I didn't get a raise in response to crazy inflation, and there was not any loss of business during the pandemic because cancer doesn't quarantine.

Let's hope it's a couple more years. But some are saying this could last for decades. I don't think prices will ever come down. The question is if wages will increase to those prices or people will just do what they always do, keep on trying to get into big expensive vehicles. Even before 2020 the economic car was dying. The reason there were cheap cars was because people didn't want them. At least in America, nearly everyone wants a big, expensive SUV or pickup. Well, that's what they want so that's what's available. What any minority want's doesn't matter.

I'm an optimist, so that's why I choose to believe it will just be a couple years. That said, I see every reason why vehicles could remain very expensive for a decade or more. It took decades to offshore everything, so it can take that long to onshore, and US labor is not cheap, so that cost will be reflected in the price of goods made here.

In the long-term (1-2 decades) the price of most everything will be much less as automation and AI reduce the cost of physical and mental labor. Just as machines level the physical playing field (a weak man can operate a fork lift just as a strong man), AI will tend to level the mental playing field. Weak thinkers with access to AI will have supplemental thinking in their back pocket, increasing the value of their decision making.

Within my lifetime, UBI will be necessary, and personal vehicle ownership optional.

[freebeard]

Keep in mind inflation since 2020 is up about 25% for most things

Keep in mind that the upward creep started in 1913.

Although it looks like inflation started out slow and has exploded since 1970, you have to remember that prices roughly doubled from 1910 through 1920. Then they declined during the 1920s and the Great Depression of the 1930s. Although the early 1920s saw massive deflation for farm commodities, so all the inflation actually occurred during the later 1920s.

inflationdata.com/articles/2021/01/01/long-term-inflation-charts-updated/

2600 percent!

I'm also an optimist. The unionized manufacturers selling EVs at a loss will be superceded by Tesla (and possibly some also-ran like Aptera or Arcimoto).

edit:
Looking at the last five years inflation is similar to taking all the books older than 2008 off the high school library shelves.

2nd edit:
Maybe add Pinin Farina to the list? Pure Electric Luxury: Presenting the Pininfarina Battista