Car prices are still insane.

[darcane]

Originally Posted by JSH

In 2020 it took 21.2 weeks of the average (mean) family income to buy the average (mean) new vehicle.

Your math doesn't check out...

From before:

Mean Family income in the USA for 2022 was $126,500 or $2,432 per week.

Mean price for a MY 2022 new car = $48,094.

$48,094 / $2,432 = 19.8 weeks - lets call it 20 weeks.

Check FRED and KBB, and I get very close to the same numbers as you, good.

For 2020, I get:
Mean Family income in the USA for 2020 was $115,300 or $2,217 per week.

Mean price for a MY 2020 new car = about $39000

$39000 / $2,217 = 17.6 weeks

And 16.5 weeks if I go to 2019.

Compare like to like?
The Accord is a sedan or coupe, and that market is rapidly disappearing, so there is a huge downward pressure on the price.
Meanwhile if we look at a Suburban, which is roughly the same size in both 1993 and 2023, it's gone from $21,920 to $57,200 for the base model. Nearly triple.
(and from ~$33,500 to $106,000 fully optioned!)

How about a Geo Metro in 1993 was $6,710. In 2023, there is nothing comparable. The closest, the Versa is $17k.

[darcane]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

My hunch is that bad transmissions can largely be avoided by getting a hybrid with an eCVT. Anecdotally, I don't know anyone that's had one go bad, and logically, the computer control should be so good that it prevents destructive operating parameters.

How do you define eCVT? Some hybrids use a true CVT and have a mild electric assist. Others, like Toyota's Synergy drive are called a CVT, but really are just a single planetary gearset with two inputs: the electric motor and the gasoline engine. The former still have a high failure rate, the latter are all but indestructible.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

My hunch is that bad transmissions can largely be avoided by getting a hybrid with an eCVT. Anecdotally, I don't know anyone that's had one go bad, and logically, the computer control should be so good that it prevents destructive operating parameters.

Originally Posted by darcane

How do you define eCVT? Some hybrids use a true CVT and have a mild electric assist. Others, like Toyota's Synergy drive are called a CVT, but really are just a single planetary gearset with two inputs: the electric motor and the gasoline engine. The former still have a high failure rate, the latter are all but indestructible.

The Toyota Synergy Drive is very well designed, practically industructible, unless you factor in the HV battery connected to it that will die in 12 to 15 years, maybe a little longer as the technology has aged (unless you get a gen 3 Prius).

Yes, the HV battery is probably going to die about the time the car would normally be considered trash anyway, but this isn't the kind of car you want if you're aiming to keep it forever as the cost for the battery alone will be a few thousand, depending on the exact model. At least it's predictable, so anyone interested in one can budget that into their vehicle ownership plan.

[Piotrsko]

Whole battery costs that much, not current on what a sub module in my volt pack goes for. Some odd 64 bolts later, couple of connectors and the module is replaced in my garage. I have done this. Volts can also replace individual cells, but I don't have the special equipment for that. Ditto for the cottage industry on a prius. Big BMW packs.... whatever
I don't know what EV has irreplaceable modules, as even a tesla can have changes made.

I am also going on 10 years and I don't know how many cycles. Losing some immeasurable capacity, but other than a couple miles less range I can't quantify how much because it's temperature, conditions, and driver related.

[JSH]

Originally Posted by darcane

Your math doesn't check out...

No it doesn't for 2020. (and now I notice the fine print at the bottom of the DOE chart I used for 1990 - 2010 says it is for cars only and does not include light trucks so all those numbers are useless.

Originally Posted by darcane

Compare like to like?
The Accord is a sedan or coupe, and that market is rapidly disappearing, so there is a huge downward pressure on the price.

Meanwhile if we look at a Suburban, which is roughly the same size in both 1993 and 2023, it's gone from $21,920 to $57,200 for the base model. Nearly triple.
(and from ~$33,500 to $106,000 fully optioned!)

$21,920 in 1993 is $46,478 in 2023 dollars. So the base Suburban has gone up 10,722 or 23%. Trucks and some body-on-frame SUVs have gone up in price from the days that they were work vehicles with rubber floor mats and crank windows. When light trucks become the preferred commuting and family vehicle they got the same options and toys as sedans.

If we look at some other long-running SUVs - they are all cheaper today.

1993 Ford Explorer 4D = $21,401 ($45,377.51 in 2023 dollars)
2023 Ford Explorer = $36,760 (Down $8,617 or 19%)

2001 Ford Escape = $19,975 ($34,551.24 in 2023 dollars)
2023 Ford Escape = 29,345 ( Down $5,206 or 15%

*The Bronco Sport is more true to the design of the original Escape but it is still cheaper at $31,230

1996 Toyota RAV4 4D = $17,758 ($34,661 in 2023 dollars)
2023 Toyota RAV4 = $28,275 ( Down $6,386 or 18%)

2000 Honda CRV 4D = $19,465 ($34,585 in 2023 dollars)
2023 Honda CRV = $28,420 (Down $6,165 or 18%)

The Metro is no more but we still have the Mirage
1993 Geo Metro Hatch 4 door = $8,505 ($18,033 in 2023 dollars)
2023 Mitsubishi Mirage Hatch 4 door = $16,695 (Down $1,338 or 7%)

Old vehicle MSRP from KBB. New from the factory websites

[redpoint5]

Amazing that vehicles have become larger, heavier, more powerful, more fuel efficient, safer, and have many more electronic doodads, and they have come down in price over time.

I expect that trend to continue with more automation (despite JHS expertise on this subject).

I see no reason why a robot with at least as much dexterity, tactile feedback, precision, etc couldn't be manufactured. In my view, any assembly process that requires humans to manipulate materials is an engineering failure.

[freebeard]

I expect that trend to continue with more automation (despite JHS expertise on this subject).

I see no reason why a robot with at least as much dexterity, tactile feedback, precision, etc couldn't be manufactured.

How Can TeslaBot NAVIGATE REALITY?! With Scott Walter

I'd like to see the Tesla robot roll a quarter on it's knuckles.

www.wikihow.com/Roll-a-Coin-on-Your-Knuckles

[redpoint5]

I expect automation to wash and put away my clothes before I die.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I say I might get to October without running heat because I have 3 females in the house to keep warm. 69 is about the lower limit they will tolerate. When I was living by myself, I set 50 as the lower limit.

I might cheat a little by lighting the 2 pilot lights on the fireplaces. Pilot lights aren't considered heating, right?

I lit 1 of the pilot lights in the living room. This morning it was 68 degrees, so I ran the heat for an hour. Missed Oct by a couple days.

Might have to run heat tomorrow morning too, but the weekend forecast looks like heat won't be required.

[Isaac Zachary]

Originally Posted by JSH

The Metro is no more but we still have the Mirage
1993 Geo Metro Hatch 4 door = $8,505 ($18,033 in 2023 dollars)
2023 Mitsubishi Mirage Hatch 4 door = $16,695 (Down $1,338 or 7%)

Good points! Prices go up and down, but generally speaking the cost of cars has come down. The used car price has gone up recently. I wonder how that compares with 30 years ago.

Of course it also depends on how you measure inflation. What a person's actual wages is a big factor too.

The Mirage is getting axed though. However, the Nissan Versa is similar in price. But the Nissan Versa will be the last sub $20k car in the USA since the Kia Rio is also being axed. I hope the Versa isn't axed too any time soon.

Originally Posted by redpoint5

I expect automation to wash and put away my clothes before I die.

I've been waiting for a phone with an integrated shaver.