The climate change consensus extends beyond climate scientists

[sendler]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

So what? Those tools use diesel now because that's what is readily available now. Once these need replacing they may well get replaced by cleaner alternatives.

As it stands some power is renewable and most isn't. How that power is distributed is not really relevant, as long as it does not get in the way of things.

Those windmills are going to produce way more energy than it took to build them.

There is no replacement possible for the density of liquid fuel at that scale for building big things. Or farming. Or mining. Batteries can never do a fraction of what liquid fuel can do in heavy applications.

[RedDevil]

I already linked a good deal of hybrid and full electric farming and mining equipment before, but I could be posting against the wind, so it seems.

[sendler]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

I already linked a good deal of hybrid and full electric farming and mining equipment before, but I could be posting against the wind, so it seems.

Hybrids still run on liquid fuel all the way up. Battery electric farm combines or mining earth movers are feel good wishful thinking designs. Memes. That their meager run times can replace a liquid fueled heavy machine. They are not in widespread use anywhere. The best hope might be for corded farm machines running in a circle around numerous built out high power electric terminals. There is no battery or corded replacement for concrete trucks running back and forth to millions of wind turbine installs.
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The point is that the free market is completely short sighted in the timeline of how long humans will strive to exist. We are totally blowing our one time fossil energy gift on cruise ships and football stadiums, ect.
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The USA alone is forecast, including the most optimistic efficiency gains from electric conversion, heat pumps, ect, to require 1,000,000 2.5MW wind turbines and 5,000 500MW solar farms, in order to replace all energy (which still leaves a big question as to how to use this electricity to make and use Methane or Hydrogen to replace all liquid fuels). To get this done by 2050 we would need to manufacture and install 90 turbines per DAY. Every day. For 30 years. And manufacture and install a 500MW solar farm every 2 days. And before that is even done, we will have to rebuild all of it starting with the first ones again. Just for the USA. Multply this time 6X at least for the World. Not including another 30% population growth to 10-11 Billion. And improvements in standards of living. 3 Billion people still cook by burning sticks.
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People have no understanding of the scale of our dilemma.

[sendler]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

hybrid and full electric farming and mining equipment

The Komatsu gets it's energy from a 775hp ice engine.
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https://www.komatsuamerica.com/equip...anical/hd605-8
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The John Deer SESAM is an unproven prototype. Have to wait and see what it can really do. 130kWh? 4 hour run time on that? 32.5kW for 4 hours.
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44hp is not much of a farm tractor.

[RedDevil]

Farming is all about torque, not horse power.

[oil pan 4]

I can easily bog down my 18hp diesel kubota tractor with the PTO brush shredder. But if I'm using the riper it cuts through the sandy soil here like a hot knife through butter.
It depends on what you are doing and how fast you want to get it done.
Not every farming task requires a 700hp tractor.

[RedDevil]

The power to weight ratio of electric motors far surpasses that of diesel engines, and their operational range and bidirectional motion allows for far simpler gearboxes.
Frame construction can be simpler without a bulky ICE and radiators etc to deal with. Hub motors remove the need for axles.

Without batteries the vehicle would be way too light to have adequate traction, so scoop in a load of $100/kWh battery packs (as per the newest Gigafactory numbers) for good measure.

[sendler]

Most big Ag tractors start with 300 or so hp and go up from there. There must be a reason. And they generally have a flat power curve with a torque peak just off idle. In any vehicle with a transmission, power does work. You make the torque what you want with the trans. Of course the EV tractor mentioned above could easily work at 200 hp if it wanted. But the 130kWh battery would need to be much larger and heavier since it would only give less than an hour of run time and be hard on the battery.
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There is a reason battery drive heavy machines are not in wide spread use. They can't compete with the performance of liquid fuel/ ICE. But one day soon they will be much better than nothing. Up to the point where we begin to exhaust our supplies of battery materials.

[freebeard]

Originally Posted by sendler

The point is that the free market is completely short sighted in the timeline of how long humans will strive to exist. We are totally blowing our one time fossil energy gift on cruise ships and football stadiums, ect.
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[snip]
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People have no understanding of the scale of our dilemma.

The understanding is there, it's just not widely distributed; wouldn't you agree?

In the 1970s Fuller proposed a World Game, to 'war game' our way to what he called Livingry (as opposed to weaponry). The problem was that the infrastructure wasn't adequate. Then when gaming came along that short-sighted focus you point to led us to first-person shooters and Grand Theft Auto. And Pokemon Go.

His Synergetics never achieved prominence. The world went on to String Theory, Dark matter and Dark Energy. All of which have come up dry.

Now comes Quantum Gravity Theory.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/quantum-gravity/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUy...JPLCCh4oRNLzsQ

My understanding is poor, but it appears to be coming at Synergetics from a different angle. The both arise from the cuboctahedron/vector equilibrium and reduce to vector and angle. The archetype is an eight-dimensional figure called the Gosset polytope. It 'contains' all the sub-atomic particles and fields, but potentially has others as yet undiscovered.

When someone gamifys Quantum Gravity we could see some progress.

[RedDevil]

Originally Posted by sendler

There is a reason battery drive heavy machines are not in wide spread use. They can't compete with the performance of liquid fuel/ ICE. But one day soon they will be much better than nothing. Up to the point where we begin to exhaust our supplies of battery materials.

Check. Copy, paste, search.
https://www.google.nl/search?q=batte...hrome&ie=UTF-8

Change is imminent.