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Old 10-26-2018, 07:25 PM   #3491 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Vman455 View Post
This has been on my mind for quite some time. If the use of the great resource means that the happiness of all of humanity in the future is jeopardized, does that justify its use? Those who, like yourself, believe that technology will progress sufficiently in the future to overcome any of the associated problems that could arise from burning fossil fuels as our primary energy source will probably answer "yes" (I think?). I vacillate between "yes" and "no" depending what mood I'm in--sometimes I think there are too many unknowns to arrive at a satisfactory answer to that question; sometimes I think it's quite clear what the trends in our planetary environment will be in the future given our activities now, but with no certainty of timescale; occasionally I wonder if we could have some sort of technological breakthrough or sea change in the near future that will change the game entirely; most of the time, I realize that my individual actions today make not one bit of difference either way.

But, it's fun to listen to the rest of you argue, so keep on. Although I don't think any of you are changing anyone else's mind here.
Thanks for offering your perspective; that's the type of discussion I'm always looking for!

I wouldn't say that I expect future technology to solve all our problems. More like the problems of today are so clearly evident, and largely abated by leveraging the resources we already have, that to withhold the relief seems cruel, especially when the future is hardly knowable.

Growing populations, AIDs, malaria, hunger, disease... most all of these things are made significantly less worse by cheap energy. Cheap energy allows us to be more productive, which gives us time to get educated, and to grow sufficient food, and get medical care, and afford contraceptives, etc, etc.

Future awesome technology can only come about by leveraging current awesome technology. If we all lived subsistence lives, there would hardly be any people around, we'd be dying at birth, living short hard lives, and needing to procreate at breakneck speed just to keep up with all the death. Basically what everyone was doing prior to the early 1800s.

I don't like waste or extremely frivolous things, which is what drew me to this forum. Somehow waste and progress are linked though. We don't know what seemingly wasteful use of resources will produce the next great thing. Maybe sending people to the Moon was a huge waste, maybe not. Our fear of the enemy innovated GPS, which we're all better off for now. The problem is that nobody is sufficiently informed or wise enough to know what is productive use of resources, and what is a frivolous waste. OK, Hummers are a frivolous waste, but they're darn cool too. I can't resent a Hummer driver as an evil resource waster because it would be arbitrary. I've got a 4 bedroom 2100 sq/ft house. Most people in the world live much more modest than that. Perhaps I'm the evil resource waster?

I'm not saying we shouldn't concern ourselves with preserving resources and habitat for future generations; only saying that we shouldn't give these future problems outsized attention. We've got solvable problems now that we're better suited to address and are much more deserving of attention. Future generations will be better equipped to tackle future problems, especially as they manifest themselves more concretely.

When my grandchildren ask why we let so many people die of malaria and other easily treatable diseases, I'll just have to tell them we had more important things to do, like fight GMOs and give lip service to combating global warming.

... and finally, directed to the larger audience- It's hypocritical to point the accusing finger at oil companies and declare them the root of all evil. We're complicit in benefiting from the products they deliver. The person who has not benefited whatsoever from petroleum resources can cast the first stone.

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Old 10-27-2018, 01:47 AM   #3492 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vman455
But, it's fun to listen to the rest of you argue, so keep on. Although I don't think any of you are changing anyone else's mind here.
You can't solve problems with the level of thinking that create them.

People think in dichotomies. Maybe they stack up dichotomies, but they're inherently one-dimensional. We need to break out into two-dimensional thinking.

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All phenomena are real in some sense, unreal in some sense, meaningless in some sense, real and meaningless in some sense, unreal and meaningless in some sense, and real and unreal and meaningless in some sense.
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Old 10-27-2018, 12:26 PM   #3493 (permalink)
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The problem is that as long technology solve problems, the stupid human race manage to create new problems.

If we solve global resources as fuel fossil, using electricity, super batteries, hydrogen fusion, people will keep growing in number, and hunger will be a problem, and they will start vertical production of food with artificial light,m and require more energy, more space, more power plants.
Disease will be better solved, so it turn people to grow more, as less will die. Solve many diseases of old age as 75 years old or 80 years old? But they will live up 110 and there will be problems more dificult at such age.

Took Africa. Do you believe such cultures, agressive and less develope in mind and industry, will in short term manage to get really better ? I don't think so. It will keep growing in number like crazy, and eveybody who courage to talk about birth controll politics will be labelled as nazist. Africa will grow and became in dependance of other countries for food and therapeutic drugs.

Technology evolve but people keep going more retard. Society (poor and rich countries) will be a monkey (no race intention here) driving Goerge Jetson's car.

It will be surprise if in future, with robots, many people live in a kind of virtual reality, connected on it, living virtual lifes, with computers with brain connections, and their bodies will be connected to machine to feed and collect excrements.

And I bet idiots will start to say that technology it's a kind of magic, since they will be so fool and technology so complicated, that they will not believe it is just technology.

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Old 10-27-2018, 02:08 PM   #3494 (permalink)
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11-years

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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
I saw an article by the AP calming there is an ipcc report saying that global warming may pause for up to 11 years.
I thought that was kind of odd, with all the CO2 china is pumping out.
I sped through,and set aside an article which expressed an opinion,that during an 11-year solar cycle,solar irradiance was reduced 0.01%,and throttled global warming,at zero temperature increase,even though carbon dioxide loading increased.
I haven't 'studied' the article,but when you mentioned an 11-year observation,this article came to mind.
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Old 10-27-2018, 02:28 PM   #3495 (permalink)
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All Darc —
Quote:
The problem is that as long technology solve problems, the stupid human race manage to create new problems.
"If you want to teach people a new way of thinking, don't bother trying to teach them. Instead, give them a tool, the use of which will lead to new ways of thinking."
R. Buckminster Fuller
https://azquotes.com/author/5231-R_Buckminster_Fuller

Quote:
And I bet idiots will start to say that technology it's a kind of magic, since they will be so fool and technology so complicated, that they will not believe it is just technology.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke
https://jimwestergren.com/my-favorite-quotes/
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Old 10-27-2018, 03:11 PM   #3496 (permalink)
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oil companies

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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
Oil companies admit the climate is changing but insist man has nothing to do with it.
Admitting they are the cause is financial suicide.
Then every 2 bit world country is going to try and sue them for perceived damages.

I say the plant started warming 14,000 years ago and hasn't stopped and that the climate has been changing for at least the last 2.5 billion years and has never stopped.
From Losing Earth:
*In 1968 oil companies figured climate change effects were 38-years out,and that by the time things showed up on the radar screen,the current generation of employees would all be retired.
*Henry Shaw emphasized to Exxon executives,that cost of inattention will rise in step with the Keeling curve.
*In 1978,and Exxon internal memo warned that only 5-10 years remained before policy action would be necessary.
*1st Congressional hearing on carbon dioxide was April 3,1980.
*October,1980,only way to avoid worst,stop burning coal.
*'' William Elliott of NOAA doubts that any scientific report,no matter how ominous it's predictions,would persuade politicians to act.
*" President Carter calling for a $80-billion synfuels program.
*'My God,with $80 billion,you could have a photovoltaics industry going that would obviate the need for synfuels forever.' Anthony Scoville,Congressional Science Consultant.
*'I think there is a transition period,... We are not going to stop buning fossil fuels and start looking toward solar or nuclear fusion and so on.We are going to have a very orderly transition from fossil fuels to renewable energy sources.'Henry Shaw,Exxon (Mobil).
*'If the changes don't occur for a decade or more,those in attendance can't be blamed for failing to prevent them,so what's the problem? David Slade,Director,Office off Carbon Dioxide Effects,D.O.E.
*November,1980,General Electric Corporation & Zapata Offshore Oil Company,elected to White House.
*January,1981,Reagan declares war on solar energy.
*American consumers respond with:
Broncos,Blazers,Suburbans,F-150s,Troopers,Samurais,Sidekicks,Land Rovers,Dakotas,Rams,Sierras,Roadmasters,Caprices,T own Cars..................
*October 19,1983,Bush's William Nierenbeg,Chairman,Committee,National Academy of Sciences argues,first,take immediately action against carbon dioxide,then reverses himself,arguing no urgent need.
*Exxon throws it's hands up,revises it's position.If Academy isn't freaking out why should they.
*Duane LeVine's Exxon internal strategy paper on 'uncertainty'.
*Exxon' Working Group on Global Climate Change,created by Duane LeVine.
*Exxon goes on to spend $30-million on disinformation campaign against climate change.
*with help from API,Global Climate Coalition,US Chamber of Commerce,Competitive Enterprise Institute,14-other trade associations (coal,gas,electric power,automakers)
We don't need no stinking planet!
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Old 10-27-2018, 03:17 PM   #3497 (permalink)
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20-150

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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
I have, multiple times.
You and Neil ignore it every time.
Go back 20 to 150 pages on this post to find it.
I have such little time each week on the computer,it would be a big favor if you would either re-post the data,or give a link.Otherwise,I just slip further behind.
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Old 10-27-2018, 03:36 PM   #3498 (permalink)
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degrowth

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Originally Posted by sendler View Post
But they are correct in their understanding of the relationship of energy and economy where they realize that our current debt based system cannot tolerate any major reduction in access to energy that curtails the growth that is necessary to cover the long term interest payments without which the world monetary system will crash and wipe out all savings and starve a billion people.
.
Unless we find a whole new way toward an equitable de-growth society.
We'll all annex one another and end up with Star Fleet Command in charge of the whole planet.
One flag.
One currency.
No currency markets.No currency speculation.
We'll have the entire planet for collateral.
All Earthlings will own at least an apartment,or cottage.They can trade or swap,or whatever,but they can never be without shelter.
They'll be fed.It may not be Surgeon Black Caviar,but they'll have nutrition.
There won't be any obesity.
There won't be any heart disease.
There won't be any property tax.
No usury.
They'll be so much disposable income available,that money issues will be meaningless.
We won't need entitlements,as everyone's basic needs will be met.
No inflation.
To much to list,but don't worry about debt.
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Old 10-27-2018, 03:45 PM   #3499 (permalink)
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military parity

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Originally Posted by oil pan 4 View Post
The soviets didn't want to push that button.
At the time of the Cuban missile crisis they had less than 1,600 nuclear weapons in inventory, the US had more like 10,000. The Russians didn't have a reliable icbm delivery system, we did. Their bombers probably couldn't have made it over the main land, we didn't have to send bombers.
That may have been true,although they had nuclear torpedoes we knew nothing about.
In an act of certain suicide,one sub might have taken out the Atlantic fleet,and the rest,worked their way up the Eastern seaboard, sending hydrogen bombs into the coastline.
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Old 10-27-2018, 03:53 PM   #3500 (permalink)
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recon

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Originally Posted by redpoint5 View Post
I thank the Soviets for nothing. They're lucky they didn't push the button. Flying a recon jet over a country isn't an act of war. They had their spies too, and they still do. That's not an act of war either.
They didn't know what kind of bird it was.We had flown B-47 bombers before.
We violated their sovereign territory,an act of war,recognized under international law.They would have been well within there rights to go to MAD.
We sold them their radar,we thought we knew their surveillance capabilities,and were wrong about what they actually had,and never thought they'd produce a SAM which could reach the blackbird.

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Last edited by aerohead; 10-27-2018 at 03:54 PM.. Reason: spell
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