Electric cars, unclean at any speed

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

So we're ditching the genset option because the Leaf's max charge rate is not high enough?
It does not have to charge the battery, right? It just can feed the EV's engine directly.

We accept that converting a car to an ICE pusher trailer with all the controls is feasible.
Circumventing the max 'charge' limitation to match the power used under load should not be harder that that imho. With twice the power generated the problem disappears.
Then the range is limited only by the generator's tank size.

Just like the pusher, a genset just isn't practical. One sized large enough to provide nearly 100% of the energy needed would weigh nearly 2000 pounds. This is way too much weight for a car like the leaf to safely pull, and would cost $10,000.

It's not that it can't be done, it's just that it isn't practical.

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

The losses of the generator are more than offset, I think, by the fact that the engine runs at a single RPM - right at its peak efficiency, all the time...

True, but based on the fuel consumption rates for the gensets you listed previously, a generator providing 100% of the energy needed to drive the Leaf would get only 29 mpg; and that is on diesel!

Originally Posted by jamesqf

Humm... Perhaps you'd better let all those Chevy Volt owners know this? 'Cause as far as I can see, the only difference is that you're putting the IC engine & generator on a trailer, instead of inside the car.

The Volt is a fairly ridiculous car that only serves the traveling needs of very few people. It costs a small fortune to purchase, and gets fairly poor fuel economy when using the ICE. Why lug around an ICE everywhere if you don't intend on using it? If you do intend to use it, why not get something more efficient like a Prius? If your family has at least 2 cars, why not have an EV for commuting/grocery-getting and an efficient gasser for longer trips?

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by RedDevil

So we're ditching the genset option because the Leaf's max charge rate is not high enough?

Maybe I misunderstood ... I thought he was pointing out the limits of the situation of going through a mostly OEM Electrical Input plug... ie the easiest option / method for someone to do the generator trailer.

Of course a different situation is also entirely possible ... but it would just become more complex than just plugging in a generator on wheels.

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Originally Posted by P-hack

Define the scenario, pick your components, make series promotion a science and not a religion.

Does that mean that you will agree with the math and references I already showed you in previous posts ???

Remember where the generator trailer was shown with corrected math and actual references ... that there are situations where the generator can be more efficient , from fuel to road.

Or is your religion too strong , to let you agree with the evidence?

- - - - -

I would add one caveat ... Unlike many posts about A>B , picking a winner kind of thing ... I have instead been very consistent in my own position ... I am not a series promoter or demoter ... I am neither for or against generator or pusher options ... each has pros and cons ... there is no singular ideal that is the best for all situations ... for those who want the it to be as simple as a black and white ... sorry for the wake up call ... but the real world doesn't work that way.

[NeilBlanchard]

22-Month Renault-Nissan Electric Vehicle Trial Proves That EVs Can Reduce CO2 Emissions by 45.5 Tons Over 350,000 Miles

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

22-Month Renault-Nissan Electric Vehicle Trial Proves That EVs Can Reduce CO2 Emissions by 45.5 Tons Over 350,000 Miles

Back on Topic?? ... what were you thinking

[P-hack]

"Renault-Nissan says that the stunning results were made possible by some driver training tips that showed the EV users how to improve range by up to 25%, despite only a 1% drop in average speed."

Originally Posted by IamIan

Remember where the generator trailer was shown with corrected math and actual references ... that there are situations where the generator can be more efficient , from fuel to road.

I saw you reaching for peak values and not matching things up operationally. I found it disingenuous. You claim there are ALWAYS situations where series is better, I cannot prove the negative of that for a given situation. So pick a situation (lets start with common situations), then we can both nail down the design.

Originally Posted by IamIan

Or is your religion too strong , to let you agree with the evidence?

Series has a lot of ground to make up, it isn't religion at all, just probability, lots of data and examples. Without knowing that you have looked at the operational parameters of the series system, matched up motor efficiency vs speed vs conversion power requirements vs generator efficiency at that power level and ICE efficiency at that power level, plus charge/discharge efficiency if you are using the battery, I have to assume you take it on faith.

[Frank Lee]

True, but based on the fuel consumption rates for the gensets you listed previously, a generator providing 100% of the energy needed to drive the Leaf would get only 29 mpg; and that is on diesel!

I don't think the serial losses are MORE than offset by a steady-state engine rpm; I think they are SOMEWHAT offset. Still less than optimal; still less than reasonably attainable.

[NachtRitter]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

22-Month Renault-Nissan Electric Vehicle Trial Proves That EVs Can Reduce CO2 Emissions by 45.5 Tons Over 350,000 Miles

... reduce CO2 emissions compared to ... ? Hummers? Bicycles? Didn't see any info on how they came up with that number. Also not clear on the "well-to-wheel" claim... does that mean they're including all the CO2 produced to mine, transport, and burn whatever fuel is being used to generate the electricity used by the EVs?

EDIT: Note that France generates over 75% of their electrical power using nuclear power (see http://www.iea.org/stats/electricity...OUNTRY_CODE=FR)... So while France is one of the few countries where the electrical generation is relatively clean, that's obviously not true for all countries (that is, what works in France may not work anywhere else).

Also doesn't address the IEEE Spectrum article's claim that the total emissions produced by the manufacture, use, and reclamation of an EV (eg. "dust-to-dust") is about the same as the total emissions produced by a standard ICE vehicle. Or the claim that the EV auto manufacturers will naturally want favorable results since they are trying to sell their (Renault-Nissan) EVs.

[redpoint5]

Originally Posted by NeilBlanchard

22-Month Renault-Nissan Electric Vehicle Trial Proves That EVs Can Reduce CO2 Emissions by 45.5 Tons Over 350,000 Miles

This just in. Phillip Morris has conducted the most comprehensive study to date, and found cigarette smoking does not cause cancer.

[IamIan]

Originally Posted by P-hack

I saw you reaching for peak values and not matching things up operationally. I found it disingenuous. You claim there are ALWAYS situations where series is better, I cannot prove the negative of that for a given situation. So pick a situation (lets start with common situations), then we can both nail down the design.

Clarifications:

#1> It is not disingenuous at all... 0%

#2> I have repeatedly disagreed with the ALWAYS part every time you try to put that incorrect label on my position ... it is still incorrect... it is not what I am claiming... it is not what I have ever claimed... unlike your claim of it not being under ... "Any situation" ... you've included all possible situations... I on the other hand have pointed out that it is not a black and white one sided thing... I have already written several times that I can see situations where the pusher is better and/or more efficient.

#3> I gave referenced sources ... the math was correct ... if you can not disprove it ... your scientific burden is clear.

#4> If there is something you want clarified about the previously shown and referenced situations ... ask and I will try to accommodate you.

Originally Posted by P-hack

Series has a lot of ground to make up, it isn't religion at all, just probability, lots of data and examples.

This current discussion is not about 'series' as whole ... that is a much larger topic ... this is the more precise/narrow topic of a generator trailer vs a pusher trailer... for a BEV... what are the pros and cons of each ... In what situations is one a better choice than the other.

If it is science based ... that requires you to disprove the evidence based theory presented to you ... if you can't do that science's requirement for you is clear... the thing you keep dodging.

Originally Posted by P-hack

Without knowing that you have looked at the operational parameters of the series system, matched up motor efficiency vs speed vs conversion power requirements vs generator efficiency at that power level and ICE efficiency at that power level, plus charge/discharge efficiency if you are using the battery, I have to assume you take it on faith.

All of that was already done in previous posts.

It came to ~35% vs ~28% ... and yet you refuse to admit 35>28.

I suggest you either ... go back and re-read it ... ask for clarification / explanation about some part of it ... or give up this new found effort of your to try and discredit others with phrases like 'religion' and 'faith'... when your the one so far flying against the wind of evidence.

When evidence has been given ... weather you like the results of that evidence or not ... scientific method determines what your claim should be... and yet you stubbornly refuse to do that ... without evidence ... vs the evidence ... that is NOT science ... that is either too stuborn to admit when you were wrong ... or faith on your part that allows you to ignore the evidence presented to you ...

- - - - -- -

This whole reply of yours ... reads to me as if something like your religion/faith/ego is too strong ... you can not bring yourself to agree with the evidence presented to you... Too bad.

We can agree to disagree ... but I will not buy this ... put down of yours about faith and religion ... when you're the one who is so far ... refusing to go along with the evidence presented to you.

[P-hack]

Sorry you have not laid out your argument very well, you cannot blame that on me, but I have yet to see a clear specification of what you are thinking using realistic value, instead you insist I am finally "seeing the light", nor do I read such derogatory posts. I don't think you have anything here. Please enumerate your ideal system so I can nit pick it.

So far the more efficient generator sounds like a unicorn, every unproven claim or concern becomes absolute proof of its existence. Build it, lets see it, we know what ICEs can do in the right hands (indeed we know what EVs can do in the right hands now too). TZero spent $75,000 building one that got 30-35 when that ICE/weight should be getting 55mpg easily. But they took the tools of ICE efficiency away from the driver by hooking it up to an electronic torque converter.