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Old 06-13-2017, 10:43 PM   #261 (permalink)
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@beard, you come up with the most interesting pictures!


Here's a nice '57.




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Old 06-14-2017, 12:40 AM   #262 (permalink)
Primer is still paint!
 
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-lol if only it were that easy in the real world!




Break out the bug spray!

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Old 06-15-2017, 06:02 PM   #263 (permalink)
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I got my install manual today for the delivery. Its not as much chopping as the Vandetta image previously shared. In fact in looking at this manual. You could actually revert the delivery back to a beetle without too much drama, as long as you had the rear window panel to weld back on. It separates on the back by drilling out the spot welds. Then the front is cut 8 inches behind the door post. All the side metal is retained for added strength. Although he does mention that some have removed the side window frames. Me, I would want to keep as much original steel as possible to keep the structure of the car as strong as possible. But honestly this kit seems to be a pretty easy install. Especially since I would not be doing the hood install since I prefer the beetle front end. Which BTW has a surprising amount of cutting involved. I would have thought installing a hood would simply be a bolt on. But this one actually requires cuts in the hinge and side hood seal areas.

So at this point, I have a pretty good understanding on what is required to build one of these things. But I do still have a few questions that are not clear in the install manual related to the drip rails. Additionally I have gaps in my understanding of the stock cooling system. But most of those could be resolved by simply comparing the manual to the car.

Here's the suggested directions for the Delivery.



This picture is either the Vandetta or Cube Van, or the owner just went crazy cutting.

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Old 06-16-2017, 03:19 AM   #264 (permalink)
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That's a good cut-line. It preserves the contour right up to the point of separation. The area behind and below the rear fenders needs a box cavity/diffuser.

I don't know if you've seen the studies I did in 3D and in redwood to find the optimal boat tail shape:



Rather than the fiberglass kit, you could graft on some other car's sheet metal. I suggest the roof from a 1948 Studebaker Starlight coupe with a V-cut down the center top to fit it to the Beetle's width. Or replace the rear quarter windows with the halves of a split back window.



There's the work Breers did for Chrysler in the 1930s. And here's the redwood experiment:



The reverse curve adds 4ft. A regular 45 boat tail adds 3ft. A 'phantom tail' truncation at the stock length would be at that box former.

The tail lights in that instruction manual picture reminds me. I don't have a picture, but the tail lights on the car in my avatar were swapped side-to-side and mounted at a shallow V angle, like an old Valiant.
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Old 06-16-2017, 03:57 AM   #265 (permalink)
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Quote:
That's a good cut-line. It preserves the contour right up to the point of separation. The area behind and below the rear fenders needs a box cavity/diffuser.
I'm pretty close to actually buying one of these kits. But I still have not found the right car. Plus I've evolved a bit since we started this topic in that I've grown an appreciation for the 68-71 beetles. Plus most of those have the fold down rear seat option, which would benefit the Delivery body mod.

But I do agree that some aero work (and cooling ducts) are needed under the backend for multiple reasons. I think most of those concerns would actually work themselves out when doing the shell swap. Because you are forced to fill in the open areas as part of the addition. Plus modify the engine cavity as part of the project. So it should become pretty obvious where the problem areas are, as well as where you would need to redirect air, etc.

Also it should be noted that the shell actually covers most of the cars roof. So it will "in some fashion" change the aero of the roof.

Quote:
I don't know if you've seen the studies I did in 3D and in redwood to find the optimal boat tail shape
Yeah I've seen them. But I have not truly studied them since I don't own a car in which they are applicable - Yet.

Quote:
Rather than the fiberglass kit, you could graft on some other car's sheet metal. I suggest the roof from a 1948 Studebaker Starlight coupe with a V-cut down the center top to fit it to the Beetle's width. Or replace the rear quarter windows with the halves of a split back window.
There's almost zero chance that I would chop up another car to make a wagon/suv. Well unless I found a donor that was roached out that happened to be really close to the receiving vehicle in proportions. Even then I try to not take on crazy fabrication jobs. But I say that with an asterisk.

Quote:
The reverse curve adds 4ft. A regular 45 boat tail adds 3ft. A 'phantom tail' truncation at the stock length would be at that box former
I appreciate the "aero work" you Eco forum guys have done on various vehicles. But I seriously doubt that I would ever make a full on boat tail on a vehicle. I know and understand the benefits and all that. But there's a conservative limit to my custom car desires.

Quote:
The tail lights in that instruction manual picture reminds me. I don't have a picture, but the tail lights on the car in my avatar were swapped side-to-side and mounted at a shallow V angle, like an old Valiant.
I'm not sure I understand what this looked like, and more importantly why you did it?

Or I could forget the beetle and just buy one of these!
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Old 06-16-2017, 11:55 AM   #266 (permalink)
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Quote:
I'm not sure I understand what this looked like, and more importantly why you did it?
Like a 1961 Valiant. Because I was bobbing the fenders, and I could.

The BGW kit supplies 80% of a usable boat tail. All it needs is a wickerbill and a diffuser.
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Old 06-17-2017, 12:22 AM   #267 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by freebeard View Post
The BGW kit supplies 80% of a usable boat tail. All it needs is a wickerbill and a diffuser.
Ok lets walk through this. Do you have a picture of the proposed Wickerbill on a sedan delivery beetle? Or something for visual reference?

Diffuser - In simple terms, I know diffuser's as a air director mounted under the rear end of road race cars, to allow ducted air under the vehicle to expand as it exits from under the vehicle. This in turn creates down force from how the air expands as it exits.


So my concern is these issues:
  • Rear engine car with a couple inch oil pan sump that hangs below the floor board, and how this will work with the above
  • Cooling the engine, and adding back the air ducts lost from the delivery shell addition
  • Venting the rear fender scooping effect without cutting off, or drilling holes in the rear fenders
  • Exhaust tucked under the rear apron getting in the way of the above

On the cooling problem. I've been pondering the concept of ducting air from the rear fenders into the engine compartment. Then discharging it out the back. So the concept of using a diffuser would benefit this effort by providing an air exit point.

But there's SO MUCH under the rear end of these cars I'm not sure there's enough real estate to fit everything. Plus I would have a EFI 2161 stroker motor. So the oil pan will be deeper than stock, and full flow with an oil cooler, and external mounted filter. (even more real estate required) So I''m not confident that all of this is possible given the constraints.

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Old 06-17-2017, 06:05 AM   #268 (permalink)
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Gol tuned for drag-racing



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopStix View Post
  • Rear engine car with a couple inch oil pan sump that hangs below the floor board, and how this will work with the above
  • Cooling the engine, and adding back the air ducts lost from the delivery shell addition
  • Venting the rear fender scooping effect without cutting off, or drilling holes in the rear fenders
  • Exhaust tucked under the rear apron getting in the way of the above

On the cooling problem. I've been pondering the concept of ducting air from the rear fenders into the engine compartment. Then discharging it out the back. So the concept of using a diffuser would benefit this effort by providing an air exit point.

But there's SO MUCH under the rear end of these cars I'm not sure there's enough real estate to fit everything.
I've already seen some old air-cooleds converted to water-cooled EA827 engines, with many different fender-mounted scoop arrangements to improve the air flow. Some had small holes or additional grilles around the license plate to get the hot air expelled.
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Old 06-17-2017, 01:27 PM   #269 (permalink)
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ChopStix — Nice motor. I was down to the shop yesterday and the mechanic, Jerry, was beating on a chrome tin because the hole for the spark plug didn't align with the spark plug so he could get a wrench on it. I've seen chrome aftermarket generator pulley saw into the pedestal.

Get OEM engine tin and have it powder coated with "chrome" if you must.

Quote:
Do you have a picture of the proposed Wickerbill on a sedan delivery beetle? Or something for visual reference?
AKA Gurney flap. Here's a helicopter with them.



Wikipedia identifies this as a "horizontal stabilizer" So long as it is installed at the point of separation on the curved trailing edge it shouldn't add to the overall frontal area. It would be in the form of an inverted U-shape. A better suggestion might be what aerohead calls 'Fashenfeld tearing edges'. I posted a picture at Permalink #180.

The rear engine complicates things, but the ideal diffuser would run at 4 from the rear torsion bar housing. The heat exchanger boxes might have to go. OTOH you have 1500 cubic feet per minute of hot cooling air that could be used for Coanda nozzles.

One thing others have done for cooling is to notch the luggage compartment floor so air can flow over the transaxle and up to the fan intake. IDK how well that works.
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Old 06-18-2017, 04:45 AM   #270 (permalink)
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Quote:
I've already seen some old air-cooleds converted to water-cooled EA827 engines, with many different fender-mounted scoop arrangements to improve the air flow. Some had small holes or additional grilles around the license plate to get the hot air expelled.
I don't think going water cooled is the right way. But adding scoops is definitely the right thing to do. I just have to figure it all out once I get the car. I'm thinking initially to connect the rear fenders to the engine compartments air supply for cooling the engine. But I'm not sure which direction the air will have to go. I think I need to find a graphic showing the stock air flow cooling for the type 1 and type 3 engines. Because that will help visualize how the fender mods will play out. Meantime I will have some extra cash in the coming weeks. So there might be a surprise car purchase in my future....

Quote:
ChopStix — Nice motor. I was down to the shop yesterday and the mechanic, Jerry, was beating on a chrome tin because the hole for the spark plug didn't align with the spark plug so he could get a wrench on it. I've seen chrome aftermarket generator pulley saw into the pedestal.
Get OEM engine tin and have it powder coated with "chrome" if you must.
I hear you. I've had the same problems on American cars with Chinese aftermarket parts. They are all crap...

Quote:
Wikipedia identifies this as a "horizontal stabilizer" So long as it is installed at the point of separation on the curved trailing edge it shouldn't add to the overall frontal area. It would be in the form of an inverted U-shape. A better suggestion might be what aerohead calls 'Fashenfeld tearing edges'.
I'm not completely sure I understand this. But I will look into it again when I get that far. I was hoping you had a more specific picture showing "build one of these".

Quote:
The rear engine complicates things, but the ideal diffuser would run at 4 from the rear torsion bar housing. The heat exchanger boxes might have to go. OTOH you have 1500 cubic feet per minute of hot cooling air that could be used for Coanda nozzles.
I need a better solution because where I live I have to have a heater. No heater would be a complete deal breaker on buying the car.

Quote:
One thing others have done for cooling is to notch the luggage compartment floor so air can flow over the transaxle and up to the fan intake. IDK how well that works.
I saw something like this on Samba. I'll explore this once I find the right car. But I'm leaning towards the concept of drawing air up from under the car to cool the engine. Then ducting the hot air out into the rear fenders. I believe if I pressurized the rear fenders with the hot air blowing into them, that the scooping effect might not happen. Or if I draw air in from the rear fenders, and use it to cool the engine, etc. Either way the rear fenders will be a critical part in making this shell work in the real world.


Here's a service manual download in pdf.


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